AoS How to Make Double Frog Kroak Work

[ProfessorSkink]

Hey all, I've been running a monster mash Thunder Lizard list for the better part of a year now for competitive play. I run a slann general, a skink chief on steg with cloak of feathers, engine with curse prayer, skink priest with heal, star priest, two stegs as battleline, guard, and a solar engine with emerald lifeswarm. This comp can beat most match-ups it really only struggles vs nurgle, Lumineth, tzeentch, and dragons stormcast. But I've been getting a bit bored with it and with the meta shifting away from the monsters with the incarnate de-incentivizing them even more, I want to play around with some variants and see what y'all think.

I really wanna make the double frogs work. Kroak is a gorgeous model and good but I want to push him to his limit in starborne, try to make that army work too. I've been thinking about trying out this list to see what it can do:

Allegiance: Seraphon
- Constellation: Starborne
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:
Slann Starmaster (265)*
- General
- Command Trait: Arcane Might
- Spell: Celestial Equilibrium
Lord Kroak (430)**
- Spell: Stellar Tempest
Saurus Astrolith Bearer (150)**
Skink Starseer (145)**
- Spell: Bind Endless Spell
Engine of the Gods (265)*
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Starborne
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
- Universal Prayer Scripture: Heal
Celestant-Prime, Hammer of Sigmar (325)*
- Allies
5 x Saurus Guard (115)**
10 x Skinks (75)**
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (75)**
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (75)*
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (75)*
- Meteoric Javelins Celestite Daggers & Star Bucklers
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 325 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 2

This list is all about throwing tons of little skinks out and summoning as much as I can to fill the board even more. The engine with flaming weapon could be fun and can still summon heal or deal mortals plus arcane vassal for kroak. The Celestant Prime is there to help as an additional beatstick, and if I drop him and a skink unit I could throw in the incarnate bind it to the engine and run up the field with these. I'm not sure where we go with double frog in the current meta but I'd like to make this work and make starborne work any feedback would be great. I need to spice things up a bit and give myself an excuse to paint up Kroak

 

[Kilvakar]

The problem I would see is that 10-man Skink units will die instantly to anything. So even if you're summoning 10 a turn you won't be able to do anything with them. Most opponents will be able to kill them faster than you can summon them. Kroak and the Engine can do some nice damage, but you're having to hope that you get really lucky with his spellcasting rolls, and that you don't die to his random death roll after taking 4 damage in a turn...
However the Prime does help make up for that. After seeing the rules for the Incarnate, though, I'd almost recommend trying it out. It looks like it can shred pretty much anything that isn't a Mega Gargant, and is basically impossible to kill for at least one turn, and literally impossible to kill in many matchups.

Side note, I'm curious because I just played nearly your exact previous list in a tournament and still wasn't able to avoid getting nuked by Kruleboyz and overrun by Ironjawz. Especially with no screens I'm wondering if you've had any luck against the meta IJ Maw-Krusha and pig spam lists?

 

[ProfessorSkink]

Yeah the main thing I'm worried about in any kroak and summoning lists is just not having enough bodies, but it's really the only way to play starborne now since the prime target rule has made salamanders unusable. The Engine can also summon saurus often if it stays near a slann which helps with bodies but there's a lot of randomness in the list especially relying on Kroak summoning, but I just want a different way to play and think this could help.

I definitely think the incarnate is going to be an addition in every list of mine just because you get so much for so little points. Our stuff will die to massive amounts of attacks or spamming mortals, and this thing will last at least one turn longer than a skink chief on steg and could potentially do more damage. I gotta test the incarnate in some lists and see what it will take to make him work, but I'm leaning towards him over the prime.

Kruelboyz are definitely a difficult matchup for us, but they might have one or two units of 9 boltboys and they might succeed in taking out a steg or two, maybe target the bastiladon. But the matchups I've played have always been focused on dealing as much damage as possible before the boys shoot. The sludgeracker is always number one target and just putting all steg shooting and the bastiladon into them is going to hurt cuz kruelboyz really don't have much in the way of protection, and playing offensively and running stegs up for charges are going to make them target the monsters coming right at them while the engine and bastiladon take out everything else. I haven't played against kruelboyz in awhile they can really counter us hard but you just got to focus fire on their big hitters and whittle them down with magic. Comet's call on a boltboyz unit is going to bring their count down and is always worth imo. Same with the realmshaper they love to use terrain use it against them.

Ironjawz are actually a comp I love going against because it's hard for them to deal with if you play it right. Their whole gimmick is a lot of damage and high rend when they do their waagh, if you can save stack enough on the monsters to stay alive they will not be able to handle us hitting back. In deployment vs ironjaws, my battleline stegs and skink chief on steg usually screen and stay forward to they can take the turn one charges, but by forward I mean in front of my monsters that are on literally the board edge like the engine and bastiladon. They might kill a steg or two, but then you countercharge and they usually can't survive that. A tournament I went to had a fast un mawcrusher 6 pigs brutes to hold objectives in back and kragnos. He 3d6 inch charged the mawcrusher into my bastiladon, and his pigs into my steg in front. He wanted to all out attack on my bastiladon and hoped to kill it before I got to shoot, even with his extra rend tho my all out defense on the 1+ save saved everything but one big fist attack. The pigs killed my steg but then my engine of the gods piled in and took out half. My turn one all my buffs went off the bastiladon doubleshot and killed the mawcrusher while in combat my other battleline steg charged the pigs and my other shooters and magic took out the brutes. By end of turn one I had lost a single steg he lost the mawcrusher all his bigs a unit of brutes, all that was left was kragnos a hero chanter and the other brute unit. I never killed kragnos I had to play around him all game to keep objectives going I won that game but it was close. Without kragnos I would have beat him quicker. Ironjaws have no protection against mortal wounds and magic and that list has it in spades. As long as I deploy way in the back wait for them to come to me my shooting will destroy half their army. One turn of double shooting from a buffed bastiladon was able to take out 10 brutes with all out defense one time vs someone else. You have to deploy on the back line against aggro armies, wait for your turn and hit them back after they exhausted the alpha strike. If you get the double turn on them there's nothing they can do.

Hope that advice helped!

 

[Just A Skink]

Even though I'm not a big player, I feel it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that Salamanders are unusable due to prime target.

 

[Kilvakar]

I don't think they're unusable, but they're extremely easy to kill, probably the easiest "prime target" to actually kill on that silly list. If you're playing against any sort of shooty or alpha-striking army, you're basically giving them as many free VP as you have Salamander units.

They're still really good in a lot of matchups, though. But with how shooting and alpha-strike heavy the meta is, they probably got hurt the most by this dumb "balance" attempt. Well, maybe Pink Horrors as well, since they're Tzeentch's basic battleline unit.

 

[ProfessorSkink]

Even though I'm not a big player, I feel it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that Salamanders are unusable due to prime target.

it’s not an exaggeration. Typical Starborne lists that ran salamander spam were running 4-6 salamanders and could summon more. All the enemy would need to do is get through 6 wounds on a 4+ armor save for a unit that only has a 12 inch ranged attack. They are the single highest victory point per wound unit on the prime target list. Everything else on there is not an easy task to kill. Six wounds for a single VP is astronomical when they were used as the main dps in swarms. You would be giving your opponent a potential 6 victory points per dead salamander pack and 12 VP if they’re prime hunters. With a 12 inch range they’re too close and will be killed in the meta today by shooting or magic before they’re even charged. Hell pinks still need someone to get through 50 wounds worth of models before they get the victory point. Some prime targets are still worth to take like the bastiladon because it’s so hard to kill. Salamanders aren’t made to survive and you give way too many VPs when in lots of matches competitively you might only win by a couple points. You might be able to get away with a reinforced pack of two but still that’s 2-4 VPs you’re giving on death that could make the difference in a game. I don’t think salamanders are worth the target on their back with the current rule as is, it was a knee jerk reaction from GW that didn’t fix their problem and simply penalized you for running them. I’m afraid to run anything but a single unit or two but even then they become free points if they die and many times you throw them in to screen and unleash hell and lots more. Idk I’d like to make them work with the prime target rules but it’s just too few wounds on such a high cost in VP

 

[Putzfrau]

it’s not an exaggeration. Typical Starborne lists that ran salamander spam were running 4-6 salamanders and could summon more. All the enemy would need to do is get through 6 wounds on a 4+ armor save for a unit that only has a 12 inch ranged attack. They are the single highest victory point per wound unit on the prime target list. Everything else on there is not an easy task to kill. Six wounds for a single VP is astronomical when they were used as the main dps in swarms. You would be giving your opponent a potential 6 victory points per dead salamander pack and 12 VP if they’re prime hunters. With a 12 inch range they’re too close and will be killed in the meta today by shooting or magic before they’re even charged. Hell pinks still need someone to get through 50 wounds worth of models before they get the victory point. Some prime targets are still worth to take like the bastiladon because it’s so hard to kill. Salamanders aren’t made to survive and you give way too many VPs when in lots of matches competitively you might only win by a couple points. You might be able to get away with a reinforced pack of two but still that’s 2-4 VPs you’re giving on death that could make the difference in a game. I don’t think salamanders are worth the target on their back with the current rule as is, it was a knee jerk reaction from GW that didn’t fix their problem and simply penalized you for running them. I’m afraid to run anything but a single unit or two but even then they become free points if they die and many times you throw them in to screen and unleash hell and lots more. Idk I’d like to make them work with the prime target rules but it’s just too few wounds on such a high cost in VP

Its an exaggeration. Lists have won GTs since prime hunters with 3 or even 6 sallies.

There are other options that are viable, but sallies are absolutely still viable.

I'd drop the engine and run more 30 blocks of skinks with a starpriest, personally.

 

[Killer Angel]

Even though I'm not a big player, I feel it's a bit of an exaggeration to say that Salamanders are unusable due to prime target.

It's an exaggeration, but ATM to run sallies is a very risky game. Personally, i like to limit as much as possible the amount of things that "don't have to go wrong or i lose".