TOW How to fix Saurus

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

So as anyone playing TOW knows, there is a problem with infantry in the edition. They are just generally underwhelming (I actually think they get better the bigger games you play, but still they aren't optimal in any case)

This post though isn't about that, or how to fix the general problem with infantry.

Even if the core infantry rules were addressed, Saurus would underwhelm in every way. This list below also largely refers to TG, so just lumping all saurus infantry together

They are too slow compared to all our monsters and skinks. At M4 they just don't gel with pretty much any other unit in the army list there.

They are way low initiative. Even if we get off a charge, they are probably simultaneously fighting, or even going 2nd still (looking at High Elfs there)

They die easily. Sure T4, 4+ is good, but it's not what it once was. Alot of AP in this edition.

They are too low of LD. This wouldn't be an issue if cold blooded worked like it used to. But right now it is.

Their characters are underwhelming. An.old blood will always be on a carno... and likely a scar vet too these days. Gone are the days of cowboys. Foot scar vets are incredibly underwhelming for all the same reasons above, only amplified because you should be able to tool them up and there isn't alot you can do.

They are too expensive. We are paying alot for a second attack we rarely get to use.

In the end Suaurs just don't fill a good role suitably in the army. They aren't tough enough to be a good anvil. They aren't fast enough to be a good hammer. They are too combat focused and expensive to be a redirector.

There is a reason they were made mandatory, because if they weren't, no one would take them.

So how to fix them? Below isn't a comprehensive checklist, but a combination of some of this would go to great lengths IMO

1- Fix Cold Blooded or +1 LD. Not really much to say there. But unrelenting tools of the Old Ones should feel unrelenting.
2- access to a magic banner, and add a banner to cause fear. 8 foot tall crocodile men should cause you to crap your pants. I understand why game balance wise just giving them fear isn't a Great idea, but there should be a path to them having fear. Since fear is tied to Unit Strength, it would encourage a large block of saurus as well.
3- predatory fighter, and it works for supporting attacks. If were always going to be fighting second, we need a way to pump the attack numbers up
4- sacred spawning. Ways that allow you to tailor your suaurus to your list needs more. Suggestions for TOW
-chotec- +1M and/or +1I
-sotek- +1WS and/or +1A
-tlazcotl- +1 LD and stubborn or just immune to psych
-tepok- MR -2 and/or 6+ ward
-tzunki- open order option and move through cover
-quetzl- +1T and/or regen 6+

5- allow slann to join TG again. So many spells require you to be part of a unit. Would go a long way to making the TG more viable (and the slann too)
6- cut points. If nothing else changed, they need to be cheaper by a lot. 14 points, 15 with a spear is too much. And 7 for the champion, musician and standard is also too much. Maybe 11, 12 with spear, and 5 for each upgrade.

 

[discomute]

So as anyone playing TOW knows, there is a problem with infantry in the edition. They are just generally underwhelming (I actually think they get better the bigger games you play, but still they aren't optimal in any case)

This post though isn't about that, or how to fix the general problem with infantry.

Even if the core infantry rules were addressed, Saurus would underwhelm in every way. This list below also largely refers to TG, so just lumping all saurus infantry together

They are too slow compared to all our monsters and skinks. At M4 they just don't gel with pretty much any other unit in the army list there.

They are way low initiative. Even if we get off a charge, they are probably simultaneously fighting, or even going 2nd still (looking at High Elfs there)

They die easily. Sure T4, 4+ is good, but it's not what it once was. Alot of AP in this edition.

They are too low of LD. This wouldn't be an issue if cold blooded worked like it used to. But right now it is.

Their characters are underwhelming. An.old blood will always be on a carno... and likely a scar vet too these days. Gone are the days of cowboys. Foot scar vets are incredibly underwhelming for all the same reasons above, only amplified because you should be able to tool them up and there isn't alot you can do.

They are too expensive. We are paying alot for a second attack we rarely get to use.

In the end Suaurs just don't fill a good role suitably in the army. They aren't tough enough to be a good anvil. They aren't fast enough to be a good hammer. They are too combat focused and expensive to be a redirector.

There is a reason they were made mandatory, because if they weren't, no one would take them.

So how to fix them? Below isn't a comprehensive checklist, but a combination of some of this would go to great lengths IMO

1- Fix Cold Blooded or +1 LD. Not really much to say there. But unrelenting tools of the Old Ones should feel unrelenting.
2- access to a magic banner, and add a banner to cause fear. 8 foot tall crocodile men should cause you to crap your pants. I understand why game balance wise just giving them fear isn't a Great idea, but there should be a path to them having fear. Since fear is tied to Unit Strength, it would encourage a large block of saurus as well.
3- predatory fighter, and it works for supporting attacks. If were always going to be fighting second, we need a way to pump the attack numbers up
4- sacred spawning. Ways that allow you to tailor your suaurus to your list needs more. Suggestions for TOW
-chotec- +1M and/or +1I
-sotek- +1WS and/or +1A
-tlazcotl- +1 LD and stubborn or just immune to psych
-tepok- MR -2 and/or 6+ ward
-tzunki- open order option and move through cover
-quetzl- +1T and/or regen 6+

5- allow slann to join TG again. So many spells require you to be part of a unit. Would go a long way to making the TG more viable (and the slann too)
6- cut points. If nothing else changed, they need to be cheaper by a lot. 14 points, 15 with a spear is too much. And 7 for the champion, musician and standard is also too much. Maybe 11, 12 with spear, and 5 for each upgrade.

Saurus are some of the best infantry in the game. Tooled up Beastmen and chaos warriors are about the only blocks my Saurus fear. The problem is infantry, not Saurus. 100% would prefer they fix infantry than worry about us specifically. That said, we absolutely should have had access to a magic banner. Leadership 8 for stock troops seems pretty reasonable to us, but character saurus should be 9 (or they should retool cold blooded), we are supposed to be a "leadership" army after all.

We already have two attacks per model, I don't think we need predatory fighter. Sacred spawnings could be fun, absolutely.

But overall we are pretty solid as far as infantry goes.

 

[Huinipachutli]

Allowing skink priests and oracle a free signature spell that boost initiative temporarily is a good interactive way to boost saurus. Something like:

Basking Radiance of Chotec
Enchantment, target cold-blooded unit adds +D6 to it's initiative value until your next turn. .

Then there is the sun-crystal Bastiladon of course.

Perhaps add a similar effect to salamander units too for being Chotec themed. "Warming presence". All could be fun tools to change the tides of battle.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Saurus are some of the best infantry in the game....

But overall we are pretty solid as far as infantry goes.

Hard disagree on them being some of the best. They may look it at face value, but in terms of what they do for the army, they don't click in like infantry can in other armies IMO and they cost way too much for what they can do.

Uploading a comparison to just the Combat Oriented Infantry (not missile guys) in FoF. I'll do Ravening Hordes later, and then maybe the other legendary factions, but this took a while so leaving it at FoF for now. No Arcane Journals either.

Some notes when you look at the attached. If a unit has weapon bonuses (S, Init, Attacks) I put that in their profile. For the comparisons of who goes first E means Enemy, L means Lizardmen, S means simultaneously. I didn't bother to write requires 2 hands, because I broke out shooting and combat saves, and then made the assumption units would never ditch their better weapon for the HW. Also alot of those units can't even take a shield, so its a moot point. I also left off rules that didn't matter when I could- IE obsidian blades for spear saurus.

Green means the unit in that stat is better than baseline saurus. Red means worse.

What you will find here is that 100% of the FoF have a lower min unit cost, and only a handfull (a full unit of Giantslayers, Hammerers, Wardancers, Pheonix Guard) are more expensive PPM base cost than a Basic Saurus w/ HW and Shield.

Now I will say saurus with a 4+ save all the time is unique. Only Pheonix Guard rival them there, and beat them with their ward save. BUT you'll notice alot of things have AP, and this is just infantry. Nevermind cavalry and monsters with -1 and -2 AP all throughout the game, and shooting as well.

Also only Dwarves rival us for Toughness.

But when it comes down to fighting and what units can do for the army, everyone beats us. Even basic empire troops have more special rules and cheaper upgrades than saurus. And in most cases will always fight before us. We have to have +3 or +4 initiative on the charge to fight before them. And there is a bunch of infantry (elven) that we can NEVER fight first against. And even when charged by Great Weapon units, we usually go last. Having 2A base matters little when the enemy can always kill the bulk, if not all, of the fighting rank before you get to attack.

And then just looking at these units, so many of them have things like fear, immune to psychology, access to Veteran and Drilled. Most everything can take more magical banners and items. Alot of units come with shieldwall rather than paying for it. Also min size 5 means pretty much anything other than lizardmen can fill a small spot to pad out a list and act as a redirector.

And then there is the fact that most all other infantry moves at the speeds required for their armies. They can stay in front of their missile troops and warmachines. They synergize well. For LM, our Saurus are literally the slowest thing in the army. Bastiladons match their speed, but Saurus shouldnt' be supporting a Bas. It if for supporting them. But our infantry isn't good for screening for our shooting or warmachines. It isn't really good at redirecting given the large unit size and cost.

Really Saurus are just in the army to pad out core and have some static combat res. But they don't even do static res well. With no Magic Banner, you have to take a foot BSB to pump them up and then a large unit. Its alot of points for something you can just do better with a Skink Chief on Stegadon. They are the slann of heavy/combat oriented infantry. They look okay on paper, but then find they aren't optimized within their own army and do what other armies do at either a higher price point, or just not as well.

But yes, if they fix infantry, that would be a big boost for Saurus. But really it would be a big boost for every other infantry, and we would still lack in comparison IMO. If there was less AP in WHTOW, and they fixed infantry and cold blooded, I think we could be fine. But as is Saurus are rather lack luster at their price point to literally everything else.

 

[skycat]

The problem is Saurus, not infantry.

Compare Saurus(14pts) with Black Orcs(14pts great weapon), Chaos Warriors (14pts), Longbeards(14pts great weapon)

All of them are S4 T4 and able to access to great weapon
Black Orcs : WS4 4+armor
Chaos Warriors: WS5
Longbeards: WS5

for 10 vs 10 fight
Black orcs kill 4.6, Saurus kill 3.3
Chaos Warriors kill 2.8, Saurus kill 2.3
Longbeards kill 4.6, Saurus kill 4.2

Saurus are the worst.

I think Saurus or TG should have an option for Great Weapons.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

The problem is Saurus, not infantry.

Compare Saurus(14pts) with Black Orcs(14pts great weapon), Chaos Warriors (14pts), Longbeards(14pts great weapon)

All of them are S4 T4 and able to access to great weapon
Black Orcs : WS4 4+armor
Chaos Warriors: WS5
Longbeards: WS5

for 10 vs 10 fight
Black orcs kill 4.6, Saurus kill 3.3
Chaos Warriors kill 2.8, Saurus kill 2.3
Longbeards kill 4.6, Saurus kill 4.2

Saurus are the worst.

I think Saurus or TG should have an option for Great Weapons.

Great weapons would be great. Strikes last isn't that bad when you are already Initiative 1.

I also think fear is a thing they should have access too. It makes sense as 8 foot tall unfeeling crocodilian bio robots made out of pectoral muscles and galvanized coffin nails. They should have some inherent immunity to fear and then inspire fear in the likes of a state trooper or a goblin

But as is, with middling WS and being Slow, with next to no really worth while special rules, yeah. Not really great.