8th Ed. How to beat dwarfs?

[The Omen]

Can anyone come up with any suggestions on how to beat dwarfs?

My opponant has started to take huge units of GW armed warriors and I just can't seem to shift them

Tried shooting them but I simply can't get rid of enough of them to get the VP that way.

Tried magiking them - but he has so much anti magic that I'm lucky if I can get a single spell off all game

Tried chargeing them - but his guys are cheaper than mine and with GW he kills me quicker than I can kill him.

His latest tactic is to take a single unit of 100 warriors with the oathstone and pack it full of anti magic equipment - can't get a spell off, no way you can kill 100 models in 6 turns via shooting and the oathstone means you can't get flank/rear charges.

I'm really at a loss of what to do - I was doing ok when 8th started and he did the usual dwarf thing of taking gun lines - terradons, chamos and bad luck meant I took them out fine, but since he's started with these massive units armed with GW I'm at a loss on how to beat them.

Ay suggestions at all would be very helpful.

 

[Coatl]

id say your best bet is...wait for it...sallies! with so many dwarves packed together like that, you cant help but have a field day with them. also, its super hard to dispel an irresistable dwellers

 

[The Hunted]

IIRC his magic resistance does not work on Dweller's. I don't have the rulebook with me, so I cannot check.

Other advice:
100 GW warriors+thane+bsb+any other stuff is probably around 1250 points and upwards. This means that he he has 750 points elsewhere, and these are 'weak points'.
Weak points as in: It probably isn't another huge block, but these points are invested in war machines and smaller units. Which means you can take them out.
Weak points also as in: These are the weak points of his army, which are relatively easy to take out.

Use all of your army's efforts to destroy the other part of his army and just don't even go near his Ginormous block of warriors.

Salamanders are really fun, since it's pretty hard to miss the block .
Slann+big scary spell of doom+irresistable force...never fails!

Otherwise: evade the big unit, no way in hell that you can beat it. Once he sets his oathstone, he cannot move, so you can threaten his flank/rear, charge with 1 unit in his flank and hopefully he sets his stone. That means he does not have any flanks or a rear, but it also means you don't charge the rest of your units in. He will now beat your 1st unit, but is unable to move during the rest of the game. Which leaves you free to dance around his unit and shouting insults at them

Remember he isn't all that mobile with a big block of M3 dwarves...

Hope this helps,

The Hunted

 

[Lord Cedric]

The oathstone is a pretty powerful item imo. According to the Dwarf Army Book and FAQs, it negates any possible disruption (thus not gaining any combat bonus from flank or rear charges.. BUT you can still charge these areas) and it allows a parry (if shield bearing) AND supporting attacks from all sides of the unit.

There is a trick here that you can do that *may* help. The oathstone is an item that can only be carried by a single dwarf character. Once he is dead, the unit does not get any benefit from the stone. The oathstone bearer must also issue AND accept any single combat challenges if he stands on the stone as a charge reaction. The unit also may not move in any way (unless fleeing, but not as a charge reaction) once the oathstone is set - including reforming. The character cannot move within this unit either.

You could send a single character whose purpose was to be the only challenger of the oathstone bearer and kill him. If you take a mounted character, the mount will also fight in the challenge. Please note that this would open up this character to the rush of a throng of dwarves after the oathstone bearers death, so having a large (or a couple) units ready to charge in the flanks/rear after the challenge would be ideal.


Also, you can attempt "single him out" by taking a couple salamanders and burning the oathstone bearer up via template praying that he fails the "look our sir!" roll. This is probably unlikely, but 2 slamanders will do a lot of damage to that unit. And with their small movement of 3", you should be able to get off a couple rounds of flaming attacks. This would work especially well against Ironbreakers! You could even send 3 or 4 salies at them. Dwarven beards are well-known to be "'living" torches!

Either way, try using his two-handed weapon (always strikes last) to your advantage - it's not everyday that a lizardmen unit gets to strike first!

These are just some ideas off the top-of-my-head. I'm sure that others will have better ones. Hope some/any of this helps! Good luck. I would be interested in knowing how/what you did the next time you play against him.

- Lord Cedric

 

[The Omen]

Thanks for the advice so far, here are a few points:

When he takes the 100 warriors it is the only unit he takes - the rest of the points being taken with characters inside the unit - so no weak points to pick off unfortunately.

I've not heard anything about dwellers being resistant to dispels - can't see any reason why it would be but if you can point me towards a reference then obviously that's a good tactic. Though the main problem is the spell breaking runes and the stealing of my power dice for his dispel pool.

With regards to sallies - tried these, but the main advantage is the panic aspect. and with a rerollable LD 10 it's kinda hard to make them run (on average they would fail a roll once every 24 games [I believe, maths was never a strong point] - and even then they would likely rally next turn). and taking a unit of 3 - even if you manage to get the maximum under the template every turn from all 3 (I think it's a max of 18 per template) then that still only comes to an average of 18 casualties per turn - ok that's enough to wipe the unit out in a 6 turn game, but the odd of all 3 constantly getting 3 complete hits are small. Don't forget he only needs 1 to survive to make me get no victory points for any of the unit.

However the idea of taking someone to kill off the oathstone bearer is a great idea, I wasn't aware he HAD to accept a challenge - with the lack of war machines (see above) an Oldblood on carnosaur should be good, he may die in the next round but then I can get flank/rear charges - I'll see how that goes for my next game.

 

[Lord Cedric]

Good luck! Also, remember that the oathstone bearer must have the oathstone set in order for a forced challenge as I mentioned above. Also, he may only have one character in that unit which is oathstone bearer. Only way he can have more is if he doesnt give unit oathstone.

Lord Cedric

 

[Gor-rok]

When he takes the 100 warriors it is the only unit he takes

Remember, he needs to have a minimum of three units on the table for a legal game. If you can minimize your casualties, taking out those two other units might give you enough points for a win.

 

[The Omen]

Really? I thought the 3 unit min had been removed from 8th edition .. that's certainly how we play it at our club.

 

[Landjorden]

Really? I thought the 3 unit min had been removed from 8th edition .. that's certainly how we play it at our club.

Nope, it´s still there, on page 134 in the little rulebook that comes with island of blood

 

[Quillum]

Well, if he wants to play like that, perhaps taking as many units of skink skirmishers as possible and just run circles around him while shooting him up with poisoned attacks as well as running those Salamanders, even an Ancient Stegadon with the blowpipes. Just make a mobile army that dances around him.

A unit of that size, 100 warriors is going to be a bulky unwieldy thing, hard to maneuver, so refuse to play his game and circle him with those skink skirmishers while filling him with jungle poisons. You may not kill a lot, but you'll end up winning because he can't kill anything of yours and you keep picking his warriors off. After all, you can't dispell blowpipes.

I'm a bit rusty as I haven't played a game in well over 8 months due to various reasons, but I'd be confident in fielding this against that type of opponent.

EDIT: I forgot about no longer getting partial points for units that aren't completely destroyed. In that situation, just refuse to play against him if he wants to be difficult like that.

 

[Battlehamster]

I agree, this dwarf player sounds like kind of a d-bag to run a list like this. There is zero strategy and really zero chance of fun for any opponent (or him for that matter).

That being said he is very beatable with a tailor made list:

-2 units of 3 sallies (you can take 2 units of them so do so). Run one up one flank, the other on the other side. Proceed to flame into his flanks each turn. That is potentially 6 templates burning him each turn (average of 1 misfire a turn so call it 5). Now they are dropping far faster (and with -3 armor not making much saves). Don't even worry about panic, those dwarves will be roasting in their little turtle formation.

-Skinks with poison. Whether this be chameleon skinks or skirmisher skinks it doesn't matter (though chameleons will get to him faster due to scout).

-As said, nothing he can do to stop an irresistable dwellers below. Chuck 5 dice a turn at this (with rumination it becomes 6) and hope for a miscast. Of course you'll have a cupped to stop the miscast (even if there is no wizard to toss it on). To ensure you have enough dice, bring several level 1 skink priests (for channeling) and give one the forbidden rod (to add dice on a bad winds of magic roll). Just plan on throwing 5-6 dice for any spell you cast to make his dispel dice and scrolls useless. Oh and get one of your priests the comet of casandora spell and lay it right on his big unit (casting with 6 dice of course). That will light his day up.

-For added fun, bring a big unit of terradons (5-6) and drop rocks on him. It's free deathage from which he shouldn't be able to do anything about. Then you can just snipe him with javelins for the rest of the game.

At worst the game should just be a draw since he shouldn't be able to catch any of your units with his monstrously slow uber beast.

Yes his list is stupid and cheesy as all get out but with the right list it can be beat. Of course it will be the cheesiest fight you ever saw which is why after you win you should punch him in the junk for being such a cheesy bastard.

 

[T`hinker`er]

+1. And after beating him in this way you will either make him a better player (hopefully) or be prepared to have him call you a cheesy bastard. If he chooses the later, just laugh it off.

 

[The Omen]

Well, I played him last night using the oldblood on carnosaur to challenge the oathstone bearer and it worked like a charm.

I spent 4 turns moving all my units into place then charge in with the old blood - oathstone bearer went down in no time. Old blood died in his turn, but then he got hit by 2 stegs - 2 units of 30 saurus and a unit of cold ones - with no more rank bonus or stubbon it was a short lived fight.

Just goes to show that any army can be beaten if you think about it carefully.

A couple of points:

1. It is right about the 3 minimum units, but my gaming group has dispensed with that rule for 8th edition, which is how he gets away with this.

2. Although this is an exceptionally cheesy army it did make it through the groups "anti cheese" rule, mainly due to the fact that is pretty much core troops (you get alot of leeway for that)

3. That said, even though it was deemed legit it was stated that if he intends to take this army then he has to inform his opponant the week before - that way it gives his opponant a fair chance as he can tailor an army to face it. Part of the fun of this game is finding a way to beat the unbeatable armies

Thank you for the help and ideas - it was much appreciated.

 

[The Hunted]

Good to hear you beat him .

Those 'unfun' builds can be put on the table every once in a while, but should be beaten soundly to prevent them from coming back all too soon!
Also nice to see your house rules are quite flexible, in a good way.

Keep it up!

The Hunted

 

[Taipan]

Can anyone come up with any suggestions on how to beat dwarfs?

My opponant has started to take huge units of GW armed warriors and I just can't seem to shift them

Are they regular Dwarves or Longbeards?

Tried shooting them but I simply can't get rid of enough of them to get the VP that way.

Don't get into a shooting war with Dwarves or Empire, they win that contest every day of the week. You'll have to engage him in close-combat.

Tried magiking them - but he has so much anti magic that I'm lucky if I can get a single spell off all game

With what exactly? I can name every item, and even all used at once, they still don't add up to all magic being cancelled
- Master Rune of Valaya: Expensive banner, limited to the BSB, and it only grants a +2 to all dispel rolls.
- Master Rune of Grungi: Expensive banner, grants 5+ ward to magic missiles. Meaning nukes still don't care, so it won't activate against 'Pit' or 'Dwellers'.
- Rune of Sanctuary: Cheap banner, grants MR1, which again means nothing to nuke magic, as 'Pit' and 'Dwellers' don't cause wounds, they cause horrific death through characteristic tests.

Banners are harder to snipe/assassinate than Runesmiths/Lords, but the following can only be taken on a Runesmith/Runelord, who won't have ward saves usually and weak armour (meaning easy prey for a Scar-Vet/Old Blood assassin).
- Master Rune of Balance: Entire allowance of a Runesmith, steal one of your power dice for a dispel dice. Meaningless, because we just add that dice back to the casting attempt with 'Rumination'.
- Master Rune of Spellbinding: Entire allowance of a Runesmith, +1 to dispel, which even with Valaya stacked is still barely matching a Slann's +4 to the casting roll (assuming he has enough dispel dice to roll the same number).
- Spelleater Rune: Entire allowance of a Runesmith, and one-use. Force him to burn it to shut down a powerful buff spell, then force through a nuke afterwards. It can make your forget the spell on a 4+, but only the spell it was used to stop, and only once per game.
- Rune of Spellbreaking: Half their rune allowance, works as per above but doesn't cause the enemy Wizard to forget their spell. Again, one use, so make him burn it on a buff spell then cast your nuke.

Tried chargeing them - but his guys are cheaper than mine and with GW he kills me quicker than I can kill him.

Yeah, don't engage until you're buffed. Even then, I'd only risk Temple Guard, Saurus are ok but can't go alone.

His latest tactic is to take a single unit of 100 warriors with the oathstone and pack it full of anti magic equipment - can't get a spell off, no way you can kill 100 models in 6 turns via shooting and the oathstone means you can't get flank/rear charges.

Take Lore of Life
Cast Dweller Below on 5 dice (adding your free one from 'Rumination')
Laugh
or
Take Lore of Shadow
Cast 'Miasma' first, to draw out his dispel rune
Cast Pit of Shadows on 5 dice (adding free dice from 'Rumination'). Even if you don't IF, you'll make the casting roll so high he can't dispel it.
Laugh

Srsly, if you can burn out his dispel runes early on, he'll have no way of blocking it. It doesn't activate ward saves, nor does it activate Magical Resistance.

I'm really at a loss of what to do - I was doing ok when 8th started and he did the usual dwarf thing of taking gun lines - terradons, chamos and bad luck meant I took them out fine, but since he's started with these massive units armed with GW I'm at a loss on how to beat them.

Thunderers suck, but Dwarven artillery is some of the best in the entire game. I'd expect him to go back to cannons at some point.


Overall, he's made things easier on your by not taking cannons and other artillery. Also, by investing in an insane block, it'll make any nuke that you cast impossible to recover from. 'Dwellers' in particular is pretty much game over, because after a 'Withering' from a Shadow Slann or even just on normal Strength, he'll lose almost the entire unit. Shadow Slann can even one-shot it, with a powered-up 'Pit of Shades', which is harder to dispel as well.

Remember, even with all his runes and standards, he will always have fewer dispel dice than you have power dice. Even if you roll badly for Winds, you get free dice with every cast, which pretty much doubles your magic output. Force him to use his two (count it, two) dispel runes early on, then hit that giant Deathstar with a nuke spell.

 

[Lord Tsunami]

a single old blood on cold one with crown of command, glittering scales and dawnstone (4+ ward and luckstone is good too, so he doesnt die from cannons as easily) will keep that unit busy for the whole game. he costs less than 300 points. hence you have 1700 points fighting his 700 points

that makes you unable to field a slann (you were playing 2k points, right?) so why not skip magic completly? he spends a lot on defending against something that isnt there!

maybe 3 normal skink units can shileds your army from conventional shooting, and a few units of chameleons will take out his artillery. Then just mop up the rest with whatever else you take.

ps. i agree with the others that this opponent doesnt seem much fun playing. either talk to him about this, or beat him at his own game as mentioned above. dwarves are at a very sad spot atm, and they have very few competitive options. hopefully they will get a new book soon with some more flavour to it. if your opponent IS not a douche and wants some both better and more fun ways to play competatively, link him this post. it is very good:
http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/topic/31959-army-building-tactica-balanced-throng/

 

[T`hinker`er]

+! on the comments above and CONGRATS on your win. I face Dwarfs with my Lizards fairly often and they can be scary, but they pretty much only have 2 ways to fight you and as such are easy to prepare for. Remember, this game is usually won in the movement phase, and Dwarfs, for all their combat, shooting and anti-magic, suck at moving.