8th Ed. How I think saurus cold one riders should be used.

[Drmooreflava]

I believe cold one riders are most effective as a counter to skaven slave-like tarpits. The number of models per unit should be 6-7 to compensate for any casualties to shooting and magic. No spears... 2 slaves per spear? SRSLY? No musician, coldblooded rolls or go home cowards.

If you want them to take on something with t4 or higher; give em wyssans wildform, they will be much more effective. -1 to cast on them from the lore attribute helps the lvl 2 skink priests a lot.

against 5 wide small infantry, you've got 6 models in combat. 24 str 4 attacks. 12 of which are able to benefit from predatory fighter. Dats nasty...

Pts wise.. You are spending 90 skaven slaves for 7. You can kill 2 units of 45 skaven slaves and not lose 3 models if you can roll 2+ on average and that is being generous towards the slaves combat prowess. Anyway... Against other things that aren't slaves, you are looking at nearly the same point cost for the enemy unit as the cold one unit.

They can fight their way through a lot of low str units. They are a great way to make sure your oldblood on carnosaur doesn't get tarpitted while also winning the combat is what I'm trying to say.

Some others have also said they like a unit of 6-7. What are your thoughts guys?

Those of you who don't think this is the optimal use of cold one riders, please state your case. I'd be happy to hear it.

I kinda shot down that frenzied cold one + characters thread. Cuz that is a terrible way to build a deathstar IMO. However, that is just an example of one build people have for cold one riders. Are there any thoughts floating around that are between deathstar builds and flanking/tarpit killings builds? I kinda doubt it, if you've got something, please enlighten me.

 

[Lizardmatt]

I'm not convinced they are worth taking. The fill the same role as saurus warriors with spears.
I think the best use for Saurus Cold Ones is against targets where the Weapon Skill and Initiative gives you an edge.
Throw them at Ogres, and you're likely to get the charge with more speed (Movement+1 and swift strider), and you're hitting on 3's.

 

[Smexygor]

I've had positive experience with them, even before this codex. I'd still take small units of them.

 

[Drmooreflava]

I'm not convinced they are worth taking. The fill the same role as saurus warriors with spears.
I think the best use for Saurus Cold Ones is against targets where the Weapon Skill and Initiative gives you an edge.
Throw them at Ogres, and you're likely to get the charge with more speed (Movement+1 and swift strider), and you're hitting on 3's.

Their role cannot be filled by saurus warriors. Swiftstride and movement 7 with 2+ armor saves is a huge difference in their profiles.

Next, ogres are a decent target but then you are going to be on a 3+ armorsave against them and they throw out as many if not more str4 attacks than cold one riders and can soak up way more wounds. Cold one riders and ogres are the same initiative so you'd be attacking at the same time anyway, the only benefit is that you aren't taking casualties before you attack. You do negate the stomps which helps but I just don't see ogres as an optimal target compared to tarpit units or str3 units that can't put a wound through t4 2+ armor save. Now if the choice is, charge the unit of ogres or the unit of ironguts... then I would agree that ogres are the safer choice to charge.

I think of saurus cav as a lawn mower rather than a jackhammer.

I believe they are worth taking, might not be optimal but worth taking. Especially if you have a oldblood on carnosaur that needs a reliable (assuming you can pass stupidity) escort unit.

 

[Rango]

2+AS, LD8, cold-blooded they are pretty resilient.
Pack of 5 is an OK deal for the price tag
They rarely scare anyone but do quite well on special assignments
M7 + swift stride is a decent flank charge threat

 

[GCPD]

WS4 T4 2+AS isn't nearly resilient enough for the price tag when they are almost always going to get hit first.

All other cavalry in that price range either have especially high Initiative, to ensure that they do their damage first (Elves) or better armour save (Chaos) or other unique abilities (Bretonnians; Blood Knights). All of them also have extremely high Strength, to ensure that they actually inflict damage, and extremely high Weapon Skill which both ensures damage is inflicted reliably, and they are protected from any return damage.

Saurus Cavalry have none of these advantages, but the same price tag. And they have Stupidity.

I'd rather bring Ripperdactyls. At least they can Fly.

 

[hardyworld]

I'm not sold on them. For the price of 7 COR, you can have 4 krox. The krox have equal survivability (5 more wounds with 2 worse armour save), almost the same movement, hit a lot harder in close combat, without the downside of Stupidity.

 

[Blackthorne]

WS4 T4 2+AS isn't nearly resilient enough for the price tag when they are almost always going to get hit first.

All other cavalry in that price range either have especially high Initiative, to ensure that they do their damage first (Elves) or better armour save (Chaos) or other unique abilities (Bretonnians; Blood Knights). All of them also have extremely high Strength, to ensure that they actually inflict damage, and extremely high Weapon Skill which both ensures damage is inflicted reliably, and they are protected from any return damage.

Saurus Cavalry have none of these advantages, but the same price tag. And they have Stupidity.

I'd rather bring Ripperdactyls. At least they can Fly.

I have to really disagree with this. You're highlighting only certain aspects of the other cav units, which is mae up for by other weaknesses. Elves are only t3 and the core ones are only s3 so after the first round, they are hitting with pillows. Chaos knights do have better stats, but they are also paying a lot more points for those stats. They start out 10 pts more expensive per knight before you even give them anything. Brets are also all t3, not to mention that the good ones are also a bit more expensive. Lets also not forget that aside from chaos, the mount attacks are pretty much negligible for most of these options as opposed to CoR who get an additional 2 s4 attacks each. And we might have stupidity, but we also have cold-blooded, which can help a lot on those times when you get rubber lance.

So I don't think you can say that we pay the same points as other armies but get no advantages since the options all are different with different strengths and weaknesses, be they low toughness, high cost, low number of attacks, etc. Our cav is just different in that we churn out a high number of lower strength attacks and are on the more durable side with t4, cold blooded.


As for the OP, I tend to agree that they make a good escort or support unit. I think that a unit of 5-6 is a good unit to have on the flank to deal with various threats or hold up opposing flankers. I intend to run an oldblood on cold one and they will provide an escort unit for him and either charge in to add a lot of attacks or have him charge out to deal with something while they protect a flank.

The other option I think is running 9-10 of them with a couple of saurus characters thrown in there as a hammer unit to run up the field.

 

[GCPD]

I have to really disagree with this. You're highlighting only certain aspects of the other cav units, which is mae up for by other weaknesses. Elves are only t3 and the core ones are only s3 so after the first round, they are hitting with pillows. Chaos knights do have better stats, but they are also paying a lot more points for those stats. They start out 10 pts more expensive per knight before you even give them anything. Brets are also all t3, not to mention that the good ones are also a bit more expensive. Lets also not forget that aside from chaos, the mount attacks are pretty much negligible for most of these options as opposed to CoR who get an additional 2 s4 attacks each. And we might have stupidity, but we also have cold-blooded, which can help a lot on those times when you get rubber lance.

So I don't think you can say that we pay the same points as other armies but get no advantages since the options all are different with different strengths and weaknesses, be they low toughness, high cost, low number of attacks, etc. Our cav is just different in that we churn out a high number of lower strength attacks and are on the more durable side with t4, cold blooded.

No, not really. I'd say that their strengths account for their weaknesses. Elves are T3: but they have good Weapon Skill (to hit and not get hit), good Initiative (to hit first, before being hit), and high Strength and re-rolls to ensure they maximise their damage. Either there won't be anything left, or it won't be able to really take advantage of their T3 weakness. The Elves go in and do their damage before that weakness can be taken advantage of. The Warriors' account for theirs by hitting fast, hitting hard, and weathering the attacks of lesser foes. Grail Knights are very similar.

Saurus go in, and expose their weakness straight off the bat. They take a ton of damage, because they are hit first and are hit relatively easily. Then they don't do much back because a) they've lost models b) they can't hit well, and c) they don't have the Strength to drive home the blows that they manage to land.

And yet, Saurus Cav pay more points per model than their Elven counterparts - significantly more if you try to up their damage with Spears; when they are already the 4th most expensive non-Monstrous Cavalry unit in the game. Their statline in no way justifies that position.

Whilst you might argue that they have a niche in churning out low strength attacks on a reasonably mobile platform, I'd counter by supposing that this isn't a niche that's needed in the game right now - who really has problems with big units of poor quality troops? - and, if it were, its hampered by the unit's own Special Rules (Stupidity means you can't rely on them being mobile when you want them to be, and Predatory Fighter means you can't rely on them not getting in to trouble without babysitting) and the other tools in the book that do the same job much easier (Salamanders, Slann magic, Ripperdactyls, Saurus).

 

[Blackthorne]

That seems like a silly comparison to me though because cold one cav clearly doesn't fill the same role as other cav. We don't have high strength, so we can't use CoR as a mobile, small number of high strength attacks like other cav units.

Sure, elves might have those rerolls and good WS, but they're s3. If they have to last longer than one round, they go from hurting things to doing absolutely nothing. 10 s3 attacks scares nobody.

WoC do go in and kill things and survive but the points you pay for them are getting close to monstrous cav points for 1-wound models.

As a bret player, I can tell you that no matter how hard hitting, 1-wound t3 models that cost almost 40 pts are hard to justify and in no way can be considered a superb option. They are good, and have their uses, but they die WAY too easily and give up a lot of points.

CoR expose their weakness? Of low initiative and weapon skill? That's our whole army. If you want good WS and init, any of the elven armies are a better call. That's something we've had to come to terms with and we do so because we have other things to help make up for that. T4 across the board on our combat blocks helps with that, as does being pretty damn reliable in sticking around with cold-blooded. Also, just looking at a statline is a poor way to judge a unit since so much of their utility comes from other aspects, like synergy or the role they play in the army. Just saying they have bad WS and init so they are bad isn't really fair since every army can look at a stat or two and say the same.


Look, my point wasn't that CoR are the best cav in the game. My point is that looking at the strengths of other cav units and comparing them to the weaknesses of ours doesn't give a good representation of our cav option. Better to realize where we come up short, realize where we are strong, and figure out the best ways to utilize the unit, as the OP was getting at.

 

[Drmooreflava]

WS4 T4 2+AS isn't nearly resilient enough for the price tag when they are almost always going to get hit first.

All other cavalry in that price range either have especially high Initiative, to ensure that they do their damage first (Elves) or better armour save (Chaos) or other unique abilities (Bretonnians; Blood Knights). All of them also have extremely high Strength, to ensure that they actually inflict damage, and extremely high Weapon Skill which both ensures damage is inflicted reliably, and they are protected from any return damage.

Saurus Cavalry have none of these advantages, but the same price tag. And they have Stupidity.

I'd rather bring Ripperdactyls. At least they can Fly.

Yea, at least they can fly, have 5+ frenzy checks and have to overrun with a much worse armor save and far fewer attacks...

You also compare saurus cav to cav from other army books. Here is where u went wrong... You need to be comparing saurus cav to the other choices in our book and find where they fit into that puzzle of pick-able units for X army role.

If you are comparing saurus cav to cav from other books, that is comparing cavarly stats and special rules.. but that isn't comparing the way each of those different kinds of cav should be used. This discussion is about what saurus cold one riders should be used for. Are you saying they should be used for nothing because they are too expensive?

You have to understand that you are paying for a model with 2 str 4 predatory fighter attacks and 2 str 4 attacks. With T4 and 2+ armor save and cold blooded! They are no monsterous cav, but they can a sure put out a ton of attacks. Cold ones also have a few different things that some of your comparisons don't have all together... Mainly cold blooded, str 4. t 4, 2 attacks with mount and rider with 2 str 4 attacks that have potential extra attacks. This is what gives them their niche... they hit almost as hard as monsterous cav and have cold blooded.

2+ armor save and low initiative is thier obvious weakness, as you point out; however, this can be overcome by putting them in favorable combats or buffing them with wyssans wildform when needed. You obviously can't count on magic but that is our best option to turn this unit from a tarpit counter into a str5 t5 unit that pumps out 4 str 5 attacks per model!

To overcome initiative issues, I'm sure that there are plenty of people still running slaans who aren't scared to cast the +d3 to ws,bs,I on them. Suddenly they are high ws and high initiative if you roll decently? Woah! They can match up with those other cav pretty quick with the proper magic phase.

Now... The big flaw... 2+ armor save... Just not good enough and there is not an effective way to overcome it. This is where you really gotta pick those favorable fights. This is also where cold one riders can't measure up to other cavalry. But, then again, you aren't playing lizardmen for their cav with 1+ armor saves like some empire, chaos and ogre kingdoms players do.

 

[HoverBoy]

I'm using minimum sized units to hunt warmachines until my terradons arrive, they are doing quite well.

 

[Dreyer]

I get enough str 4 attacks from my saurus and they are usually underwhelming, and paying 4 points for spears when Coc usually get smashed before most of them get to attack is pitiful

 

[GCPD]

You have to understand that you are paying for a model with 2 str 4 predatory fighter attacks and 2 str 4 attacks. With T4 and 2+ armor save and cold blooded!

Yes, and I'd consider that pretty reasonable... if it was significantly cheaper. Low Weapon Skill and low Initiative are serious weaknesses that just aren't accounted for (The Carnosaur suffers from the same problem).

Back in 7th edition where charging units went first, I could understand why you'd price Saurus Cavalry so highly: they are one of the few Lizardmen units that actually stand a chance of going first, and so they should be costed accordingly. But there's nothing outstanding enough about them under the current rules system to justify keeping it so high. There is no way that they compare in damage output to Demigryphs, Skullcrushers or Mournfang and its wrong to suggest that they are "almost" as good.

Ripperdactyls have their own weaknesses, but at least they can Fly (don't have to worry about intervening terrain/units); have a higher Initiative (stand a greater chance of being able to deliver their attacks before dying), and a ton of abilities to help make the attacks that they do deliver count (Kiling Blow, Armour Piercing, Bloat Toad additional attacks and re-rolls).

This discussion is about what saurus cold one riders should be used for. Are you saying they should be used for nothing because they are too expensive?

[/quote]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. In order to analyse a use for something, you need to understand its strengths and weaknesses. If the conclusion of that analysis is that its strengths do not sufficiently compensate for those weaknesses, then the only logical conclusion is not to use it. My analysis is that they need to find low quality/high number units to attack, which aren't really a problem that need overcoming.

But let's try a different track: what units would you be confident of putting them in to, without magic support? I say without magic support, because anything can be good with magic buffs behind them.

 

[SanDiegoSurrealist]

I like them, I have 14 and they do serve a purpose.

They are a drop that a lot of people look at and say "Crap I need to deal with that quickly"

They are not great by they can be effective. And now that we can have SP spamming Wild Form they are a little better.

 

[Pofadder]

I agree with both sides of the coin.

CoC is still expensive for what they do imho, the 2nd cold one attack added was lazy design to try and justify cost. The PF could be nice if not for the downside, now one of our most mobile non-flying units we have to try to keep a skink character to within 6" to curb that?

Yes they are better when buffed but as previously stated all units are good with the right buff. That is evidently our army mechanic in 8th ed

I do believe they are better than Krox though, because they have swiftstride and full command, and that and that along with the ws4 trumps ws3, ASL, s7 unless you are facing 1+ sv unit.

Do they have their uses...yes I will try them in 5 -6man units, hell even now and then in a bus.

Are they auto include in our lists? nope...

But we have to play with cards dealt to us and for variety I will try them out, because we have other chaff clearers and flankers available to us as well but I like variety...

 

[Blackthorne]

Comparing them to skullcrushers, demigryphs and mournfang is ridiculous since those are monstrous cav and cost a whole lot more to justify their increased hitting power.

The low WS and init are accounted for though by high toughness and coldblooded. Those are the tradeoffs er make for the whole army. Yes, lizardmen have low WS and init. That's true. But obviously we have things to help compensate, otherwise our army would never be good, which is clearly not true.

But, to follow your other track, I would feel good sending these guys into a number of situations. I'd charge them into other cav units (no elven cav will touch you if they don't charge, brets and empire too if they're not deathstar units), chariots of any color except maybe nurgle gorebeast ones. They're good for area denial vs harassment units since they can threaten all chaff. They actually make really good backline hunters since they churn out enough attacks that they can reasonably charge into caster bunkers and hold their own since they can kill a bunch and not lose any to return attacks. Things like leadbelchers, hurricanums, TK chariot units, gyrocopters, etc are all good targets. What they're not is can oopeners or monster hunters like some other cav units. But that doesn't mean they don't have a role, it just means tthat they're role is different.

 

[Spiney Norman]

I agree with both sides of the coin.

CoC is still expensive for what they do imho, the 2nd cold one attack added was lazy design to try and justify cost. The PF could be nice if not for the downside, now one of our most mobile non-flying units we have to try to keep a skink character to within 6" to curb that?
/quote]

This is the deal breaker for me, its fairly easy to keep a skink priest near your infantry line, but Saurus cavalry's field of operation is typically away from the main battle line which makes it very hard to get a character near them. The forced pursuit effectively means they are only good for a single round of combat (unless they don't break their opponent) before they run off into a compromising situation and get flanked and destroyed.

 

[Drmooreflava]

Why are you worried about predatory fighter? It isn't that bad and you have swiftstride to help roll higher and get out of line of sight.

4 Demigryphs = over 90 skaven slaves. putting out 12 str 5 ap attacks with 4 rider attacks and 4 str 5 stomps. 20 attacks in total.

7 Cold ones = 90 skaven slaves. 14 str 4 attacks with predatory fighter. 14 str 4 cold one attacks. 28 attacks in total.

You say it is a poor damage performance comparison... I contest that agrument. Cold ones have a large volume of attacks with a chance for bonus attacks. Sure, they don't wound T3 units on a 2+ but the amount of attacks they dish out should compensate.

For them being a ton of pts less than demigryphs and with cold blooded, mind you, they are a PICK-ABLE option. They are worth their points, the problem is that they are not suited to any kind of combat like most monsterous cav are.

A bonus, with coldones, it doesn't matter much if you get the charge or don't. You're going second anyway and you aren't counting on the charge for bonus str.

 

[Lizardmatt]

A bonus, with coldones, it doesn't matter much if you get the charge or don't. You're going second anyway and you aren't counting on the charge for bonus str.

Nice spin! That's like saying "Don't worry about being forced to pursue, you're going to lose combat anyway".
IMO, the correct fix for lizardmen coldones would have been to remove stupidity, not to gain an attack.
Ld8, cold blooded and stupid has a ~50% chance of failing 1 or more tests per game. For me, that's a deal breaker as a flanking unit.

The problem with S4 is two fold. First, you don't wound as often. Second, even skinks, skeletons and clan rats get an armor save against your strength 4 attacks. Finally, since we lost the magic standard, you cannot throw armor piercing on the unit. That delegates the Cold Ones to killing low toughness poor armor opponents; which is all that our core already does.

I guess that's the problem with Cold One Riders. If you are already forced to spend 25% of your army on units that effectively kill low toughness low armor opponents, why would you want to blow your special points on doing more of the same?

-Matt