8th Ed. High Magic Analysis

[Natural 20]

To help clarify web it says makes the unit ethereal until the end if the "phase" it means the magic phase, meaning the magic phase it was cast not the next magic phase. The spell is purely for movement purposes and nothing else it serves no combat or hex purpose. Though I wonder does the wording say friendly unit? In such a case could you cast WbW on say a Hellpit? Or an enemy unit in general and move them back from your lines? That would be phenomenal

 

[Tecuani]

The spell type is "Augment" rather than "augment/hex", which I think limits it to friendly units only.

 

[Natural 20]

Ah ok thank you

 

[Caneghem]

You're only ethereal until the end of the phase :-/

Which means if you use the movement to fly over an enemy with terradons and drop rocks, those rocks become magical, as they are from an ethereal unit.

Just keep that in the back of your mind when you have to face hexwraiths or spirit hosts.

-Matt

Unfortunately Ethereal only specifies that close combat attacks of ethereal units are magical, but maybe we can get a lucky FAQ.

 

[D43m0nSp4wn]

Terradons drop their rocks in the remaining movements phase so does the 'as if it were the remaining movements phase' part of the spell cover them for dropping rocks whilst ethereal?

 

[GCPD]

In another topic, NIGHTBRINGER linked this really informative video discussing High magic and how to make the best use of the lore attribute, which I think is worth adding to the OT. The key points were:

1. Choose a target lore to swap to. Start swapping to this turn 2-3.
2. Identify the key spell that you need from the lore.
3. Pick a signature spell that you need, and swap to this turn 1.

At the end of the video, the user identified a few match ups and the approach that he would take. EG:

Daemons:

• Signature spell: Death. Try for DnD, swap down to Spirit Leech.
• Target lore: Light.

Undead/Skaven:

• Signature: Metal/Shadow
• Target lore: Death.

Skink heavy vs Empire:

• Signature: Heavens.
• Target lore: Metal.

I thought that it would be extremely worthwhile to compile a complete list on this basis. Here I my thoughts, please add your recommendations:

WoC:

• Signature: Metal, Shadow, Death, Beasts.
• Target lore: Something with combat buffs, so Life, Light, Metal or Shadow.

Elves:

• Signature: Light or Fire if you are low on magic missiles, otherwise Shadow or Heavens.
• Target lore: Light or Life.

Bretonnians:

• Signature: Metal
• Target lore: Light or Life (buffs to absorb/hit before lances)

Beastmen:

• Signature: Shadow, Beasts, Death.
• Target lore: Light or Death.

Lizardmen:

• Signature: Death
• Target lore: Death

Dwarfs:

• Signature: Heavens or Death
• Target lore: Death

Ogres:

• Signature: Death or Shadow
• Target lore: Death or Shadow

Orcs and Goblins:

• Signature: Heavens (if plenty of warmachines) or Shadow.
• Target lore: Death, Shadow, Light.

 

[GhostWarrior]

This addition to this tactica is excellent. It really adds focus to the use of this awesome and unique ability. Good job finding this and adding to it.

 

[Eyeless1]

Maybe im just dumb, but why do you say Walk between Worlds is the best spell? I usually only cast it once on the first or second turn to help position sallys or carnos, then i switch it for Light spells

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Maybe im just dumb, but why do you say Walk between Worlds is the best spell? I usually only cast it once on the first or second turn to help position sallys or carnos, then i switch it for Light spells

Warhammer is a game of movement and positioning, the game is won and lost through movement. Any spell that gives you extra movement or inhibits/reduces the movement of your opponent (i.e. lore of Slaanesh Acquiescence) is golden. Walk Between Worlds has many uses, some of which are...

-moving into ideal range (& angle) for shooting; think Salamanders
-setting up a dangerous flank/rear charge for the following turn, thus forcing your opponent to adjust
-bringing an out of position unit back into the game
-moving a vulnerable unit out of harm's way

I think this is one of the more difficult spells to consider when choosing to trade spells or not. If everything is in perfect position or locked in combat it is useless. However it can be difficult to predict whether or not it will be useful a few turns down the line. It really comes down to a judgement call based on the board setup, opposition and personal playing style.

 

[GhostWarrior]

Our army is comparatively slow when facing the likes of Elves (esp Dark and Wood) and Warriors (I'm thinking mounted-heavy builds here). This is doubly so for our units that want to engage in close combat. With Walk we can take even our Saurus units, and gain the ability to hem-in non-flying units so that they engage us.

The game is about movement and positioning, as Nightbringer said. In addition, the game is about giving your opponent as few choices as possible, and making as many of them as possible 'bad' choices. Using Walk to put a powerful unit in an awkward position for your opponent, is a boon.

 

[Scalenex]

In another topic, NIGHTBRINGER linked this really informative video discussing High magic and how to make the best use of the lore attribute, which I think is worth adding to the OT. The key points were:

While the video has some helpful tidbits, the narrator seems to overuse spell swapping in my opinion. Generally I have buyer's remorse when I swap more than three High Magic spells in a single game. I keep hoping rolling a lucky spell will turn things around and I end up with something slightly less useful than what I traded away. Also, there is a trap you can fall into of focusing on your crappy High Magic spells with intent to switch out rather than casting your useful spells with intent to do useful things immediately.

 

[KingCheops]

While the video has some helpful tidbits, the narrator seems to overuse spell swapping in my opinion. Generally I have buyer's remorse when I swap more than three High Magic spells in a single game. I keep hoping rolling a lucky spell will turn things around and I end up with something slightly less useful than what I traded away. Also, there is a trap you can fall into of focusing on your crappy High Magic spells with intent to switch out rather than casting your useful spells with intent to do useful things immediately.

I have to agree with you Scalenex. Plus apart from Tempest (still good against Elves) and Fiery Convocation (too high a casting cost) what crappy spells are there really? Apotheosis lets us heal a stegadon or make skinks spook enemy flankers (probably the next weakest after those two). Drain Magic protects against enemy buffs and debuffs on us. Soul Quench is a very good magic missile and can help us win the skirmisher battle. Hand of Glory can fix a lot of the problems our Saurus have. Finally the OP expounded on WbW and AF already.

So what, you should 6 dice Fiery Convocation on turn 1 or 2 just so you can swap out?

 

[Eyeless1]

Can Apotheosis bring a model to have more wounds than it started with, or not?

 

[Scalenex]

Can Apotheosis bring a model to have more wounds than it started with, or not?

It specifically says regain wounds, so no. You can't go above your starting wound count.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Apotheosis lets us heal a stegadon or make skinks spook enemy flankers (probably the next weakest after those two)

Personally I would never choose to keep Apotheosis because you get the same effect for free from the Lore of Life lore attribute. The only advantage that Apotheosis has over the life lore attribute is that it gives you fear (which isn't all that great) and you can boost it to d3. Now compare that to some of the spells that you can get in life... Flesh to stone, Regrowth, Dwellers (and even regrowth if you are in a unit of temple guard).... YES PLEASE!

 

[Scalenex]

Personally I would never choose to keep Apotheosis because you get the same effect for free from the Lore of Life lore attribute. The only advantage that Apotheosis has over the life lore attribute is that it gives you fear (which isn't all that great) and you can boost it to d3. Now compare that to some of the spells that you can get in life... Flesh to stone, Regrowth, Dwellers (and even regrowth if you are in a unit of temple guard).... YES PLEASE!

If I was playing a solo Slann with no Temple Guard I would not swap out Apothesis since Earthblood would be useless and I might get a high casting cost spell like Dwellers, handy but not handy for cheap healing. But I usually take Temple Guard so Earthblood is almost always in fashion. I hope for Flesh to Stone or Throne of Vines, but I'll settle for Earthblood.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

f I was playing a solo Slann with no Temple Guard I would not swap out Apothesis since Earthblood would be useless and I might get a high casting cost spell like Dwellers, handy but not handy for cheap healing. But I usually take Temple Guard so Earthblood is almost always in fashion. I hope for Flesh to Stone or Throne of Vines, but I'll settle for Earthblood

That's a good point about the possibility of getting Dwellers, which is difficult to cast, and thus not useful for easy healing. In such a case, you have to consider what army you are facing. If it is Elves, then I'd be more than happy to keep Dwellers. The only other spell with high casting cost is Regrowth, but with it you gain a very significant ability to heal up some wounds, so that's a keeper as well in my books. The spell you really want is Flesh to Stone, that is the jackpot spell of that lore. I'd switch out Apotheosis for the chance of getting that gem. At worst I end up with earth blood which can replicate the effects of Apotheosis, but at an 8+ to cast vs. 5+. If my Slann is in a unit of skinks, then earth blood is not a bad spell to have... but of course Temple Guard benefit much more!

My personal opinion is that it is always worth it to take the chance and swap Apotheosis for a life spell, no matter where your Slann might be hiding.

 

[Rettile]

my tactic is a bit different: i try to swap spells with the lores which have a hex or a buff as a signature, because i feel like i only need these kinds of spells lategame, so i priorize life and shadow, and eventually beasts and heavens. If i get the wrong spell i take the signature and i stop swapping with that lore, otherwise i keep swapping with the same lore until i have to pick the signature and then i stop. Obviously i can swap with other lores if needed, for example metal if i have 1+ enemies on the battlefield or death for a dangerous enemy character, but i usually don't. Regarding the swappable HM spells:
-drain magic: usually swappable, unless your opponent has one or more RiP spells with high casting value
-soul quench: swappable, even if you probably need to cast it 3-4 times if your opponent has too much chaff
-apotheosis: swappable expecially if you swap for life, consider keeping it if you have lots of monsters
-HoG: never swap this, really. If you swap spells with shadow combo HoG and miasma in the same fight
-WbW: it depends on deployment and your army list. Swappable IMO, but make sure to use it at its maximum potential before it goes
-tempest: definetly swappable. Probably the first spell you should cast
-arcane unforging: this spell is a drug, once you've casted it you can't stop, but it's swappable even if sometimes it's worth casting it 2-3 times to cripple dangerous opponents or remove nasty magic items (BotWD, hellheart, empire speculum and so on)
-fiery convocation: swappable. Just cast it one time, if you can, and let it go. You could use the power scroll to cast it easily and if your opponent isn't able to stop you he'll waste his next magic phase to beat the original casting value. Cast it on a horde or a deathstar (i prefer the second option since there are good chances of miscasting and i really don't want to blow up my slann for some skaven slaves or goblins)

 

[rantapanda]

High magic lacks hard-hitting sniping spells. Now that we are 50% lords, 50% heroes it is very relevant as we are seeing lots of super characters . If im packing High Magic, Ill try to swap to shems or searing doom. If the characters are carrying 2+ flameward im going for death magic.

 

[GhostWarrior]

Rettile really hit the nail on the head.

I think the point is that there are plenty of High Magic spells that are worth swapping out throughout the game because you can look at the board and see diminishing returns from future casts of that spell. When you look at that in combination with your army build and the army your opponent has brought to the table, certain High spells lose a lot of their value, and can be better served by a chance at a BRB Lore spell, signature or not.