AoS Hiding models by other units

[Canas]

What are you guys using to determine if a unit is hidden by another unit?
I already use the rule that simply seeing a banner or a speartip doesn't count as seeing the unit.

But there are some other situations in which things get a bit weird because other units (usually) don't count as "cover". Now if the model you are hiding behind is large enough to visible hide you there is no real questions, but what the correspoding model isn't that large.

Basicly you have the following: I'm hiding a model behind a unit of similarly sized models. For example, a skaven warlock engineer hidden amongst a load of clanrats.

Now how many skaven clanrats do I need to throw in front of my engineer before he is properly hidden and protected from ranged attacks in the following cases:

• A similarly sized attacker (e.g. a skink)
• A somewhat bigger attacker (e.g. a stormforged judicator)
• A significantly bigger attacker (e.g. a stegadon)
• An attacker that has flying (e.g. a terradon)

The reason I'm asking this is because especially in cases of armies like the skaven, that field loads and loads of cannonfodder it seems rather vital for the actual important units to be able to hide behind/amongst the cannonfodder to protect them from incoming ranged fire. If you can't hide your engineer in those hordes a ranged army would simply shoot the engineer and then mop up whatever cannonfodder remains.

Also, if the model is only partially hidden, shouldn't there be a rule that basicly says "this model is partially hidden by another unit, shooting at it is more difficult cuz they are in the way. Roll a dice on a 4+ you hit the intended target otherwise you hit the one obstructing the line of fire"

 

[Ritual]

I don't know the official stance on it, but at the club we generally just run a straight line from the middle of the bases between the two and if anything is in the way - it's blocked by whatever is in between...

 

[Aginor]

My friend and I use mainly common sense and most of the time we agree.

Roughly speaking you could use base sizes as a hint. When my friend's Wardokk (25mm) is standing behind a line of his Ardboyz (32mm) he has to have at least a bit of space between them or he won't be able to see something to cast bolts at.
Except if those are Cavalry or Behemoths or flyers. Those are tall enough.
His Weirdnob is a tall guy on a 32mm base. Cavalry or bigger stuff will block him but we assume he can see over his Arboyz just well enough so they don't obstruct him.

My Starpriest can look over my Skinks of course. But Saurus Cavalry or a Carnosaur will block him. Except if the target is a Maw-Krusha or an Aleguzzler.

 

[Canas]

The offiial rules are essentialy "can you see any part of the model whatsoever then you can shoot at it. Even if this means you are now killing someone by shooting his banner"

@Aginor although that is more or less what I plan to do that doesn't take into account elevation/height difference & the depth of the ranks. It works for 1 rank though. Just drawing a straigt line has the same issue, a terradon can then suddenly no longer look over stuff despite flying.

 

[Crowsfoot]

The offiial rules are essentialy "can you see any part of the model whatsoever then you can shoot at it. Even if this means you are now killing someone by shooting his banner"

@Aginor although that is more or less what I plan to do that doesn't take into account elevation/height difference & the depth of the ranks. It works for 1 rank though. Just drawing a straigt line has the same issue, a terradon can then suddenly no longer look over stuff despite flying.

We play it as if you can see the models body it can be fired at, this applies for same height models.
Anything that is taller than the target usually has line of sight unless the target is hidden behind a taller object be it a building or model.

 

[Bowser]

Yeah, we play with the same sort of rules as @Crowsfoot if you can see the bulk of it, you can shoot it.

 

[Aginor]

How do y'all handle models with high bases?
I don't think my friend is doing that on purpose but lately he has started to place some of his heroes on bases that are very nicely built, artistically great, with big rocks and so on.
But of course that moves the wizard up a inch or so. Which might tilt balance if a player decides to make everyone standing on huge columns like that Nelson statue in London.

 

[Canas]

The issue with using a rule like "if the bulk is visible you can shoot it" is that it can reult in certain oddly shaped models suddenly gaining an advantage or disadvantage. @Aginor's friend who has slightly taller bases for example. Or for example stormforged liberators waddling towards you sideways so they obstruct more of the view since the stance of the models makes them as small as possible hidden behind their shield. Which means that unitsbehind them are much more visible than units hiding behind say saurus warriors. Or all mounted units now have their mount perpetually rear so they are elevated slightly...

 

[Bowser]

As there is no facing, going in sideways to block sight is a valid tactic. With the taller bases you could subtract the height of the base to determine LOS. I think it's just easier to gofor the quick visual, but if it is a friendly game take the time before hand to figure out what units block LOS for the high base guys as you did with the Wardokk. As long as you're consistent it will be fair, and keep it fun.

 

[Canas]

As there is no facing, going in sideways to block sight is a valid tactic.

It's valid, but quite silly/stupid, especially with certain units like the stormforged having relativly large bases of which they don't occupy that much.

Plus it'd quickly devolve into arguing wether or not yor stuff was sufficiently turned to block the view. I'd rather have a rule like in the LOTR game where it basicly says if something that is at least half the targets height is in the way it counts as an obstacle, much clearer and easier to use. Though that still leaves the issue of trying to shield your own troops while allowing them a line of fire, so I'm not entirely happy with it.

 

[Bowser]

Yeah, that makes sense, if Ibremember correctly, I believe it was something like that in 8th as well where that would grant cover. There's a lot of ways to do it, so as long as you agree to a way before hand it shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Canas]

Also, it screws with stuff like artillery & snipers and the like, which is a bit of a downside to that rule. You also didn't get a cover bonus in lotr, there was just a 50/50 chance a shot would simply hit the obstacle instead of the intended target. If you had multiple obstacles you basicly couldn't hit anything.

 

[Canas]

I think I'l go for the following. Provided the target can actually be seen but has its view partially obstructed by another unit:

• If an obstructing unit is within 1" of the target:
  • If the obstructing unit is taller than or equally tall as the target any ranged attacks will hit hem instead
  • If the obstructing unit is smaller, but obstructs at least half of the valide target roll a dice for every attack that succesfully caused a wound, on a 4+ it hits the intended target, otherwise it hits the obstruction. E.g. a line of saurus warriors can be in the way of shooting at a stegadon under the right angles.

• Additionally If an obstructing unit is within 3" elevation & the height of the attacker need to be taken into account:
  • If the obstructing unit obstructs at least 90% of the valid target you cannot hit the target and hit the obstruction instead.
  • If the obstructing unit obstructs at least half of the valide target roll a dice for every attack that succesfully caused a wound, on a 4+ it hits the intended target, otherwise it hits the obstruction.

• Flyers can only hide behind other flyers. (use some common sense for what a "flyer" unit is. A slann can give his saurus flying, but a saurus warrior will never be a "flyer")
  
• Units that do not need line of sight such as a poison wind thrower never suffer from these issues.
• Flyers count as being elevated enough to ignore obstructions that aren't within 1" (provided they have line of sight)
• Putting the attacker on high ground will cause the obstruction ot obstruct less of the valid target, similarly having to shoot up into higher ground will cause even smaller units to obstruct quite a lot.

Anyways, this has the following advantages:

1. You can now effectivly use cannonfodder as screening-units against ranged attacks
2. Getting the high ground is actually relevant.
3. Your own screening forces don't block your own line of sight completly from the get-go, they need to get into melee with te opponent before they become an actul nuisance when firing.
4. Snipers & artillery shouldn't be completly nerfed by it.
5. It gives some protection to turn 1 sniper fire from halfway across the table.

Thoughts?

 

[Crowsfoot]

I agree with most of it but I think your own screening units SHOULD block LOS only the UNIT the model belongs to does not.

 

[Canas]

I agree with most of it but I think your own screening units SHOULD block LOS only the UNIT the model belongs to does not.

In principle I agree, the issue however is that the range on a lot of weapons is tiny compared to how far units can move (and charge). A unit like the warpfire thrower with it's 8" range would only be able to be used if it could fire from behind cover as otherwise it's pretty much guaranteed to get charged and annihilated. If your own screening units would Always count as being in the way it'd basicly beciome impossible to use.

Similarly, if one side would outrange or heavily outgun the other side the screening unit becomes virtually useless if it is Always in the way as you'd chew through the unit far too quickly.

Furthermore, as long as the screening unit is not in melee it can simply be told to duck at appropriate moments, so it makes at least some sense logically speaking. Just imagine something akin to how napoleonic era soldiers would volleyfire.