8th Ed. Here we go again vs warriors of chaos (2000 points)

[Morglum]

Right after a break of 3-4 weeks (cry), it's back to war with those warriors of chaos

I recently thought of a very good old blood (pretty sure he does excist already, but i didn't do any look up, i swear). So here we go:

Lord

Oldblood, general
Cold one
Fencer's blades, glittering scales, potion of foolhardiness, talisman of endurance

Heroes

Saurus scar veteran, BSB
Shield
Armor of destiny

Skink priest
lvl 2, Dispell scroll
Lore of beasts
Ancient stegadon, egine of the gods, sharpened horns

Core

23 Saurus warrios, full command, Scar vet goes in here

24 Saurus warriors, full command

10 skink skirmishers

Special

11 Cold one riders, full command, oldblood joins this unit

Bastiladon, Solar engine


My own thoughts, the old blood is almost unkillable, with a very good armor and ward save + making him very hard to hit in CC, most of the time against other char a +5. The BSB is something you can't go without anymore in a 2k battle... It's simply to good, and again a very good armor save and ward. Lvl 2 priest on an ancient steggie just seems like alot of fun. Also taking lore of beasts because of the set up of my army, last time i also had lore of beasts and deployed cold ones, that signature spell really made them hurt alot.

Core is just there to go with the scar vet and to get to my points. Special units is something else, i just really like the idea of a bastiladon... Don't have the model sadly, but again it looks like alot of fun, if it will work is something else . the cold one riders are just my main unit, they need to get in CC fast, failing stupidity won't be a problem i reckon with a BSB close by in the beginning. 14 is maybe a bit to much i could drop 5 and take 10, main concern here is when i keep the 14 my moveability, taking less might result in not getting in CC with enough to take out a unit.

Let me know what you lot think battle is this coming Friday, if i don't drink to much, i might make a battle report xD

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Right after a break of 3-4 weeks (cry), it's back to war with those warriors of chaos

I recently thought of a very good old blood (pretty sure he does excist already, but i didn't do any look up, i swear). So here we go:

Lord

Oldblood, general
Cold one
Fencer's blades, glittering scales, potion of foolhardiness, talisman of endurance

Heroes

Saurus scar veteran, BSB
Shield
Armor of destiny

Skink priest
lvl 2, Dispell scroll
Lore of beasts
Ancient stegadon, egine of the gods

Core

23 Saurus warrios, full command, Scar vet goes in here

24 Saurus warriors, full command

Special

14 Cold one riders, full command, oldblood joins this unit

Bastiladon, Solar engine


My own thoughts, the old blood is almost unkillable, with a very good armor and ward save + making him very hard to hit in CC, most of the time against other char a +5. The BSB is something you can't go without anymore in a 2k battle... It's simply to good, and again a very good armor save and ward. Lvl 2 priest on an ancient steggie just seems like alot of fun. Also taking lore of beasts because of the set up of my army, last time i also had lore of beasts and deployed cold ones, that signature spell really made them hurt alot.

Core is just there to go with the scar vet and to get to my points. Special units is something else, i just really like the idea of a bastiladon... Don't have the model sadly, but again it looks like alot of fun, if it will work is something else . the cold one riders are just my main unit, they need to get in CC fast, failing stupidity won't be a problem i reckon with a BSB close by in the beginning. 14 is maybe a bit to much i could drop 5 and take 10, main concern here is when i keep the 14 my moveability, taking less might result in not getting in CC with enough to take out a unit.

Let me know what you lot think battle is this coming Friday, if i don't drink to much, i might make a battle report xD

I'll digest and answer later.

 

[Morglum]

Willing to drop 5 cold one riders, but for what? Few skink skirmish units or maybe some terradons or rippers?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Willing to drop 5 cold one riders, but for what? Few skink skirmish units or maybe some terradons or rippers?

First off, what's your strategy?

Second, what do you anticipate you will be facing?

On a one-on-one set-up like this, you can tailor your army against 1) your opponent (meaning, since you've played him before, how does he play), 2) and what type of an army you think he will be fielding and 3) what strategy do YOU want to do.

For instance, Skink's will be good against chaff or no armour save models (marauders, Giants, Chaos Spawn) and as redirectors for units you want to delay or keep out of a fight.

They will be useless against WoC, CKs, etc.

Or Terradons. They can be good against war machines, but forget about them against a Hellcannon as best case scenario they will last A turn against it and do no damage. You could use as redirectors but they're a bit expensive in my opinion.

So my advice depends on what you want to do...

 

[Morglum]

First off, what's your strategy?

Second, what do you anticipate you will be facing?

On a one-on-one set-up like this, you can tailor your army against 1) your opponent (meaning, since you've played him before, how does he play), 2) and what type of an army you think he will be fielding and 3) what strategy do YOU want to do.

For instance, Skink's will be good against chaff or no armour save models (marauders, Giants, Chaos Spawn) and as redirectors for units you want to delay or keep out of a fight.

They will be useless against WoC, CKs, etc.

Or Terradons. They can be good against war machines, but forget about them against a Hellcannon as best case scenario they will last A turn against it and do no damage. You could use as redirectors but they're a bit expensive in my opinion.

So my advice depends on what you want to do...

Mostly likely i will get a unit of chaos warriors, hell cannon(s), a daemon prince or a lvl 3 on a disc, some juggernauts, maybe a chariot. He doesn't play alot with marauders, giants or a chaos spawns, mostly he fields strong units.

I want to get into CC asap with my cold one riders and then support them with my steggie or bastiladon. If i kill off one big unit, his morale will go down . I always lose in challenges with my old blood, but now i think i got a pretty decent chance in a challenge.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Mostly likely i will get a unit of chaos warriors, hell cannon(s), a daemon prince or a lvl 3 on a disc, some juggernauts, maybe a chariot. He doesn't play alot with marauders, giants or a chaos spawns, mostly he fields strong units.

I want to get into CC asap with my cold one riders and then support them with my steggie or bastiladon. If i kill off one big unit, his morale will go down . I always lose in challenges with my old blood, but now i think i got a pretty decent chance in a challenge.

You could use some Skirmishers as redirectors to allow you to choose which unit you get into contact with.

Even though I'm not a fan of the COR (points vs effectiveness), if you're going to field them, don't think they're invulnerable. You'll need the extra models to ensure you can attack back fully.

Otherwise, if I was you, I'd just be sure I had a strategy in mind and then review my list against what you said he will probably field and what your options are for blunting his tactics.

 

[Morglum]

I'll let you know how it went

 

[airjamy]

Right after a break of 3-4 weeks (cry), it's back to war with those warriors of chaos

I recently thought of a very good old blood (pretty sure he does excist already, but i didn't do any look up, i swear). So here we go:

Lord

Oldblood, general
Cold one
Fencer's blades, glittering scales, potion of foolhardiness, talisman of endurance

Heroes

Saurus scar veteran, BSB
Shield
Armor of destiny

Skink priest
lvl 2, Dispell scroll
Lore of beasts
Ancient stegadon, egine of the gods

Core

23 Saurus warrios, full command, Scar vet goes in here

24 Saurus warriors, full command

Special

14 Cold one riders, full command, oldblood joins this unit

Bastiladon, Solar engine


My own thoughts, the old blood is almost unkillable, with a very good armor and ward save + making him very hard to hit in CC, most of the time against other char a +5. The BSB is something you can't go without anymore in a 2k battle... It's simply to good, and again a very good armor save and ward. Lvl 2 priest on an ancient steggie just seems like alot of fun. Also taking lore of beasts because of the set up of my army, last time i also had lore of beasts and deployed cold ones, that signature spell really made them hurt alot.

Core is just there to go with the scar vet and to get to my points. Special units is something else, i just really like the idea of a bastiladon... Don't have the model sadly, but again it looks like alot of fun, if it will work is something else . the cold one riders are just my main unit, they need to get in CC fast, failing stupidity won't be a problem i reckon with a BSB close by in the beginning. 14 is maybe a bit to much i could drop 5 and take 10, main concern here is when i keep the 14 my moveability, taking less might result in not getting in CC with enough to take out a unit.

Let me know what you lot think battle is this coming Friday, if i don't drink to much, i might make a battle report xD

Must say i don't like going Slanless and Skinkless against the strongest army in 8th, the few ways we have to deal with a Daemon Prince both center around using those units effectively. You are also paying so much points for a BSB while you can just have your Slann be the General and BSB, this amount of points just looks like a waste to me. The Glittering Scales build you mention is pretty ok, what i dislike about it is that you deal a lot less damage with only S5 when compared to the S7 from the Great Weapon, but it is pretty durable.

Against the list you describe, you will have very little board control, as you have no chaff. The Warriors of Chaos will be able to force you to come to them, as you will start dying to their Hellcannons. Warriors of Chaos can also take spells from the Lore of Shadows, Pit of Shades alarm! Yes you might be able to scroll the first Pit of Shades, but what about the second or the third one? The mastery that lets you reroll the first dispell attempt is a lot better against must dispell spells if i am honest, as it gives you power in all turns of the game. They will be able to force a front to front engagement with you coming to them, and they are the *best* front to front army in the game. Your shooting will do very little with them dispelling the Solar Engine on a 3+ or 4+ while you will have no bonus, same with your Skink priest. You will be very dependent on the charge from your cold one riders, and even if you get the charge off, you probably won't break a unit of Warriors of Chaos due to Steadfast, and then you will die, if you have not died already from their superior magic and shooting.

I would consider a list like this against what you describe.

Slann, Harmonic Convergence+channeling staff combo, Mastery that lets you reroll your failed dispell attempt, BSB

Oldblood, Glittering Scales combo, Cold One (goes solo)

4 units of Skinks

Large unit of Saurussus

Large unit of Temple Guard to hide your Slann in

Solardon/Stegadon (dependent on points)

Against an army like Warriors of Chaos you can easily run your Oldblood solo, Warriors of Chaos have no shooting except their cannons, and to not die to the cannon you can keep your Oldblood out of line of sight. I think it will be *easier* to keep your Oldblood alive against a cannon when he is *not* in a unit, as the size of the unit you have to hide is a lot smaller! You will also have more room to hide your monsters, that also dislike eating cannonballs. Finally, i just don't see how you can go Slanless against such a magic heavy army that can cast Pit of Shades, especially when you do want a BSB (and i totally agree you want a BSB), so i would upgrade your unit of Saurus Warriors to keep him safe. Finally, i think you need to out shoot the Chaos Warriors to make them come to you, hence the units of Skinks. The Skinks can even do double duty in warmachine hunting.

Hope you don't mind me being slightly critical in my reply, i sadly just don't see how going front to front against Warriors of Chaos will work (i have never seen it work), so i think a rewrite of your list is needed to give you a chance Friday. Would love to see something like a battle report!

 

[Morglum]

Must say i don't like going Slanless and Skinkless against the strongest army in 8th, the few ways we have to deal with a Daemon Prince both center around using those units effectively. You are also paying so much points for a BSB while you can just have your Slann be the General and BSB, this amount of points just looks like a waste to me. The Glittering Scales build you mention is pretty ok, what i dislike about it is that you deal a lot less damage with only S5 when compared to the S7 from the Great Weapon, but it is pretty durable.

Against the list you describe, you will have very little board control, as you have no chaff. The Warriors of Chaos will be able to force you to come to them, as you will start dying to their Hellcannons. Warriors of Chaos can also take spells from the Lore of Shadows, Pit of Shades alarm! Yes you might be able to scroll the first Pit of Shades, but what about the second or the third one? The mastery that lets you reroll the first dispell attempt is a lot better against must dispell spells if i am honest, as it gives you power in all turns of the game. They will be able to force a front to front engagement with you coming to them, and they are the *best* front to front army in the game. Your shooting will do very little with them dispelling the Solar Engine on a 3+ or 4+ while you will have no bonus, same with your Skink priest. You will be very dependent on the charge from your cold one riders, and even if you get the charge off, you probably won't break a unit of Warriors of Chaos due to Steadfast, and then you will die, if you have not died already from their superior magic and shooting.

I would consider a list like this against what you describe.

Slann, Harmonic Convergence+channeling staff combo, Mastery that lets you reroll your failed dispell attempt, BSB

Oldblood, Glittering Scales combo, Cold One (goes solo)

4 units of Skinks

Large unit of Saurussus

Large unit of Temple Guard to hide your Slann in

Solardon/Stegadon (dependent on points)

Against an army like Warriors of Chaos you can easily run your Oldblood solo, Warriors of Chaos have no shooting except their cannons, and to not die to the cannon you can keep your Oldblood out of line of sight. I think it will be *easier* to keep your Oldblood alive against a cannon when he is *not* in a unit, as the size of the unit you have to hide is a lot smaller! You will also have more room to hide your monsters, that also dislike eating cannonballs. Finally, i just don't see how you can go Slanless against such a magic heavy army that can cast Pit of Shades, especially when you do want a BSB (and i totally agree you want a BSB), so i would upgrade your unit of Saurus Warriors to keep him safe. Finally, i think you need to out shoot the Chaos Warriors to make them come to you, hence the units of Skinks. The Skinks can even do double duty in warmachine hunting.

Hope you don't mind me being slightly critical in my reply, i sadly just don't see how going front to front against Warriors of Chaos will work (i have never seen it work), so i think a rewrite of your list is needed to give you a chance Friday. Would love to see something like a battle report!

I certainly don't mind you being critical, otherwhise i wouldn't post my army list here for advice . A few side notes though, we recently got back into playing warhammer again (started this summer), so all the advice i can get is very welcome. I think we've played around 10 battles in total, in most of them i always take a slann with the build you mention (like say 8 out of 10 times). I got tired of always playing with a slann (for now, i still do love that toad ). So i decided to try something else. Last time i used no slann, my battle went excellent (you can read the battle report here: https://www.lustria-online.com/threads/2k-lizzies-vs-woc.25103/ , although must admitt i was lucky with the hell cannons).

Anyway by turn 2 i would ideally be in combat with my CoR (even more ideally in a flank xD). Skinks going up against a hellcannon doesn't seem good imho, i would lose that cc i reckon. Is there even a good option for lizardmen to go warmachine hunting against a hell cannon? Maybe like you said on old blood going solo. Going to edit my list a bit and lose a few cold one riders and bring in some skink skirmishers though, not for warmachine hunting though. So 3 CoR gone, is 1 unit skink skirmishers and maybe even give my ancient steggie the D3 wounds skill, for those juggernauts. If this battle doesn't go my way, i will certainly try your list the next time! Like i said, although we did a few battles already, we are still trying to find our game, ya dig? thx for your advice it will not go to waste, your list is the next thing i'm going to try against them

 

[Morglum]

Ow yea one quick question, so in the rulebook it says the following if you miscast with a bound spell:

If the bound spell is contained within a magic item of some kind, the item crubmles to dust and cannot be used again during the game. Do not roll on the miscast table.

If the bound spell is an innate ability, such as those used by a warrior priest, for example, then the model simply cannot cast further bound spells durhing this phase. Do not roll on the miscast table.

So what happens with the engine of the gods and the solar engine? I think the first paragraph is used right? the engine of the gods and solar engine crumbe and can't be used anymore for the rest of the game right?

 

[Lizards of Renown]

Ow yea one quick question, so in the rulebook it says the following if you miscast with a bound spell:

If the bound spell is contained within a magic item of some kind, the item crubmles to dust and cannot be used again during the game. Do not roll on the miscast table.

If the bound spell is an innate ability, such as those used by a warrior priest, for example, then the model simply cannot cast further bound spells durhing this phase. Do not roll on the miscast table.

So what happens with the engine of the gods and the solar engine? I think the first paragraph is used right? the engine of the gods and solar engine crumbe and can't be used anymore for the rest of the game right?

Yes.

It would "crumble" and be unusable for the rest of the game like you say.

Just for the record, you can never miscast using 1 die and it's power level 3 so...

 

[airjamy]

I certainly don't mind you being critical, otherwhise i wouldn't post my army list here for advice . A few side notes though, we recently got back into playing warhammer again (started this summer), so all the advice i can get is very welcome. I think we've played around 10 battles in total, in most of them i always take a slann with the build you mention (like say 8 out of 10 times). I got tired of always playing with a slann (for now, i still do love that toad ). So i decided to try something else. Last time i used no slann, my battle went excellent (you can read the battle report here: https://www.lustria-online.com/threads/2k-lizzies-vs-woc.25103/ , although must admitt i was lucky with the hell cannons).

Anyway by turn 2 i would ideally be in combat with my CoR (even more ideally in a flank xD). Skinks going up against a hellcannon doesn't seem good imho, i would lose that cc i reckon. Is there even a good option for lizardmen to go warmachine hunting against a hell cannon? Maybe like you said on old blood going solo. Going to edit my list a bit and lose a few cold one riders and bring in some skink skirmishers though, not for warmachine hunting though. So 3 CoR gone, is 1 unit skink skirmishers and maybe even give my ancient steggie the D3 wounds skill, for those juggernauts. If this battle doesn't go my way, i will certainly try your list the next time! Like i said, although we did a few battles already, we are still trying to find our game, ya dig? thx for your advice it will not go to waste, your list is the next thing i'm going to try against them

With Skink Skirmishers, the goal would be to plink of some wounds of the hellcannon with their poison. You would ofcourse not kill the hellcannon in CC, but who cares, every turn the hellcannon is in close combat with your skinks, he is not shooting at a monster, giving you time to close the gap! I believe skink skirmishers are our best warmachine hunting option, they are cheap, and they give your opponent a very uneasy choice, am i going to sit here and die from poison, or am i going to charge them and lose 1 (and maybe even more turns if you get lucky with your LD roll!) turn of shooting. Don't forget that often the first 2-3 turns in 8th often decide the game, losing one turn of shooting is massive. Worst case scenario you did some wounds on the Hellcannon, he lost a turn of shooting, and you lost 70 points of skinks,, sounds like a win to me!

I do not think that against a good opponent, you would get the charge with the CoK, as your movement of 7 is just so much less than a winged Daemonprince, and a charging DP makes mincemeat of that unit, but you can always try to get lucky. I still have not heard a plan of how you are going to survive the dreaded Pit of Shades (rolling initiative tests on Sauri is so goddamned painful), but if your opponent is not aware of this stupendously strong spell, it is of course not that big of an issue for you.

 

[Lizards of Renown]

With Skink Skirmishers, the goal would be to plink of some wounds of the hellcannon with their poison. You would ofcourse not kill the hellcannon in CC, but who cares, every turn the hellcannon is in close combat with your skinks, he is not shooting at a monster, giving you time to close the gap! I believe skink skirmishers are our best warmachine hunting option, they are cheap, and they give your opponent a very uneasy choice, am i going to sit here and die from poison, or am i going to charge them and lose 1 (and maybe even more turns if you get lucky with your LD roll!) turn of shooting. Don't forget that often the first 2-3 turns in 8th often decide the game, losing one turn of shooting is massive. Worst case scenario you did some wounds on the Hellcannon, he lost a turn of shooting, and you lost 70 points of skinks,, sounds like a win to me!

I do not think that against a good opponent, you would get the charge with the CoK, as your movement of 7 is just so much less than a winged Daemonprince, and a charging DP makes mincemeat of that unit, but you can always try to get lucky. I still have not heard a plan of how you are going to survive the dreaded Pit of Shades (rolling initiative tests on Sauri is so goddamned painful), but if your opponent is not aware of this stupendously strong spell, it is of course not that big of an issue for you.

Having tried poison versus Hellcannons I can tell you that with the 4+ and 5++ saves, you won't get anywhere. It took my unit of Chamo Skinks 5 turns to kill a Hellcannon.

Do the math-hammer on it and you'll see you'd have to be incredibly lucky to make this.

In CC, the Hellcannon will beat your troops in a turn, no question. So you would just have your Cc phase and then he'll be back to shooting next turn, no problem.

I have been brainstorming for a good lizardmen response to the Hellcannon here, which is a good read:
https://www.lustria-online.com/thre...-my-force-to-take-on-warriors-of-chaos.24020/

For any other warmachine, Skink Skirmishers are good, but Chamo Skinks are better (with Scouts ability and a little bit of luck you can be shooting at them on turn one).

 

[Morglum]

massacre for the lizzies, battle report later tonight

 

[Morglum]

Battle report here:

https://www.lustria-online.com/threads/lizzies-vs-chaos-warriors.25334/