8th Ed. Help the High Elves

[lordkingcrow]

Hey guys,

So I play against HE quite often and have been relatively unimpressed with what I've faced so far. Their magic is pretty great, but I find them lacking in the combat area, even with all of their re-rolls. Honestly, I'm trying to help out my friend who has lost the last six games to my lizards (as well as a few additional battles against my dwarf army, poor guy). What do you find effective against our cold blooded army? I've been encouraging him to use some Phoenix Guard, as I think they could survive pretty well and maybe branch out with more cavalry. He loves his sword masters, but they just don't have the armor to stand against us for very long. Long story short, I want him to win, but refuse to lower myself to letting him win. Thoughts?

 

[LawGnome]

Frost phoenix.

They work wonders against scar-vets (though poison shooting will certainly take them down like everything else)

Banner of the world dragon and white lions will be tough for us to break. They will beat us in close combat, but we can't magic them away.

Of course, there are answers to all of these (high magic, skinks, etc.), but they certainly help

If you don't mind special characters, take Alarielle and a few light wizards. Now that death star is nigh unkillable.

I'll let you know if I think of anything else. They have a lot of stuff that can really put the hurt on lizards, they just need to play it right.

 

[Pepticsalve]

I've played high elves a bit - they are tricky to get right - but can be devestating in the right hands. Firstly, swordmasters are crap. Sure, if you can get them into hth combat they are likely to get a few wounds, but they fall apart like tissue paper and are a waste of points. I liked to run them as I had visions of loads of high accuracy strength 5 attacks, but unless you can high magic them into position (walk between worlds) they are going to get shot up and killed before they really deliver the goods. Some people like to run them in MSU... I think they are a bit 'meh' to be honest.

Your friend should really be running a *large* block of phoenix guard (20, minimum, 25-30 recommended), with a level 1 or level 2 high magic mage bunkered in them. They get to use their ASF (halberds), martial prowess as standard, and get strength 4 hits and most importantly have a 4++ ward save, which can be buffed to a 3++ if the bunkered mage can get a single high magic spell off during the magic phase. Give them a war banner or razor standard and watch them win combat what with their static resolution, refusal to die, and ability to put out a lot of decent strength hits with accuracy (especially with the razor standard)

As has been pointed out frost phoenixes are very good also. As are great eagles, for tying down units and generally getting in the way.

High elf core is pants, a maximum of 25% should be taken - the absolute minimum. Lothern sea guard are a total waste of points. Archers are good, but they suffer from the same old high elf problem - strength 3. Sure, they will hit a LOT, but they won't wound much, and anything with armour will be walking away...

High elves are an army where you have to focus on one theme - if you are going to take archers, then take an entire core of archers and back them up with 3 or 4 repeater bolt throwers. It leads to a very boring gunline army, but one the lizards might struggle with... If he wants to really max out the 'pewpew' then sisters of avelorn as well are extremely hard hitting with their bows...

Dragon princes with silver helms make for a hard hitting and durable army. Phoenix guard, as I've already said (though they are expensive, 15 points a model - but well worth it).

I also recommend the loremaster of hoeth as general in smaller games. He can fight well, and has all the signiture spells which can be invaluable - there are some real gems in there. Wouldn't bother with an archmage - a normal level 1 or level 2 mage bunkered in the right unit will do.

What stuff does he run in core? The old adage of warhammer is that you need to win at least 2 of the 4 phases to be competitive. Elves can certainlly win movement - especially with caverly centred army. They will probably tie with lizards for the magic phase... They will win shooting against lizards, and will probably tie fighting with the lizards... Elves do have a big advantage over lizards, which is high initiative, ASF and martial prowess. But their strength 3 lets them down - if you friend can start buffing his units with the appropiate spells and banners (razor standard in the phoenix guard) then I think he would stand a chance.

*phew*

 

[lordkingcrow]

Thanks guys! This is helping a lot. Much of it reflects what I've been thinking, but your confirmation of it makes me more certain. I didn't know those phoenix guard could get a 3++ when the wizard gets a spell off, that's nasty! They remind me of Dwarf Ironbreakers in a way. The frost phoenix is nasty. That's one thing he knows for sure. Can an elf character ride that bad boy?

For his core he runs some of those massive spear blocks that dish out tons of hits, but very few wounds. I've charged a unit of cold ones into them, killing close to a dozen in one go, while he can't even score a wound. He also loves his bolt throwers, but lately I run very few, if any monsters, preferring cold ones to dish out the damage.

What do you guys think about those silver helms? They are core right? We've got a league going on here and it is starting off at 250 points and gaining 250 a month. He ran some and they actually did pretty well.

He loves to run a lvl 4 wizard, which has a lot of power, but what are your thoughts there?

 

[n810]

Lore of Shadow...

massive spear blocks that dish out tons of hits, but very few wounds

Ocams Mindrazor (sp?)

 

[Pepticsalve]

Thanks guys! This is helping a lot. Much of it reflects what I've been thinking, but your confirmation of it makes me more certain. I didn't know those phoenix guard could get a 3++ when the wizard gets a spell off, that's nasty! They remind me of Dwarf Ironbreakers in a way. The frost phoenix is nasty. That's one thing he knows for sure. Can an elf character ride that bad boy?

There is a named character that can ride the frost phoenix - Caradryan - but I wouldn't bother with that. Just run one or two frost phoenixes as part of the rare choice - it has an amazing combat ability called blizzard aura, which makes any unit in combat with the frost phoenix ASL and -1 strength... Can be amazing.

For his core he runs some of those massive spear blocks that dish out tons of hits, but very few wounds. I've charged a unit of cold ones into them, killing close to a dozen in one go, while he can't even score a wound.

Nothing wrong with massive spear blocks but he has to buff them. Like I said earlier I'd be taking a level 2 loremaster as the general, who can fight a bit, but also has the signiture spells. Wysans (beast magic signiture) will give them strength and toughness 4, making them actually able to do some damage. Imagine a 30 or 40 strong block of spears with a loremaster and a noble BSB (with razor standard) bunkered in them. Suddenly they are throwing out loads of ASF re-rolling hits wounding with strength 4 and doing armour piercing... A bit more scary, though still not going to make lizards cry TOO hard...

What do you guys think about those silver helms? They are core right? We've got a league going on here and it is starting off at 250 points and gaining 250 a month. He ran some and they actually did pretty well.

Love silver helms. Once I've built a 2000+ point lizard army I'm going to go back to my high elf army (which is my first WHFB army) and going to rebuild from the ground up as a 100% cavelry army, running silver helm 'character transport' units as well as dragon prince and reavers - backed up with frostheart phoenixes and eagles... Not a single infantry model in sight ;-)

He loves to run a lvl 4 wizard, which has a lot of power, but what are your thoughts there?

I understand the temptation here but frankly I don't like it and never have. A level 2 mage is more than enough, especially if you can convince him to run a loremaster general. Level 2 mage with high magic in an appropiate large infantry bunker to spam the lore attribute (which is the +1 to ward save for each spell cast attribute, to a maximum of 3++).

Even now that I've moved over to lizards I'm not mad keen on running a slann... I think I'll probably just stick to 2 or 3 level 1 skink priests. My rationale for this is that magic, by its very nature, is very fickle.... Some players swear by it, but do you really want to base your entire stratigic plan on that crucial spell going off at the right time? Its in those moments that you will almost certainlly roll a 1 and a 2 for the winds of magic and get absolutely nothing.

I like to think of magic as a 'bonus'. Sure, if you get a spell or two off in your turn then great! But don't rely on it... Level 4 archmages are just so damn expensive (220 points without magic items) and they are super frail... I don't like them. Run a level 1 high magic mage in an infantry bunker and a loremaster in the main combat block (phoenix guards are ideal)...

Spearmen are good as an anvil - but if you are doing that you need silver helms or dragon princes to come in on the charge, hitting hard into the flank and looking to win combat by enough points for force a flee response.........

Oh, and if he does go for silver helms don't cheap out on them. Run them at least 15 strong. They need to win combat on the first turn of combat otherwise their strength 5 attacks turn into strength 3 and they aren't going to win a grind fest...

Sorry for the long reply!

 

[Pepticsalve]

Lore of Shadow...

massive spear blocks that dish out tons of hits, but very few wounds

Ocams Mindrazor (sp?)

That would certainlly help ;-) Strength 8 ASF attacks with martial prowess and extra ranks for spears. Terrifying! I doubt there'd be any models left to flee after that lot were finished ;-)

 

[LawGnome]

The way that my friend plays high elves is to ignore core as a combat choice. He takes reavers, archers, and silverhelms as a wizard bunker. The reavers are great chaff. Archers can take out a few models before they get into combat with one of their actual combat blocks, and silverhelms make for a very durable wizard bunker.

If he can get a good charge with the silverhelms, he'll take it, but otherwise he is not intending to get any of his core into combat.

His special and rare choices do all of the heavy lifting.

 

[Pepticsalve]

The way that my friend plays high elves is to ignore core as a combat choice. He takes reavers, archers, and silverhelms as a wizard bunker. The reavers are great chaff. Archers can take out a few models before they get into combat with one of their actual combat blocks, and silverhelms make for a very durable wizard bunker.

If he can get a good charge with the silverhelms, he'll take it, but otherwise he is not intending to get any of his core into combat.

His special and rare choices do all of the heavy lifting.

In a way I don't blame him, but when you think you have to take 25% minimum of your army as core I'd rather they actually did *something* in the battle other than just sit there... But I do get the rationale behind playing them that way.

I feel you could definitely build a competitive core around just archers if you were so inclined, two units of 25-30 strong, they've got the range and the accuracy, but at strength 3 (and you can't buff a longbow) they wouldn't be much good against either dwarves or lizards. They'd probably make low toughness/low armour enemies like Skaven cry though ;-)

They definitely aren't a straight foward army to use, thats for sure..

 

[LawGnome]

In a way I don't blame him, but when you think you have to take 25% minimum of your army as core I'd rather they actually did *something* in the battle other than just sit there... But I do get the rationale behind playing them that way.

I feel you could definitely build a competitive core around just archers if you were so inclined, two units of 25-30 strong, they've got the range and the accuracy, but at strength 3 (and you can't buff a longbow) they wouldn't be much good against either dwarves or lizards. They'd probably make low toughness/low armour enemies like Skaven cry though ;-)

They definitely aren't a straight foward army to use, thats for sure..

Keep in mind: They are definitely doing something. The archers are picking off weaker chaff units or weaker units in general. They are going to be taking pot shots at skinks. The reavers are chaffing up our stegs and keeping our important units out of combat. Since they are fast cav, they can double flee and then rechaff on the next turn. The silverhelms work as a decent combat unit, but for the most part they are a very cheap way to have a very tough to kill wizard bunker.

None of these are really "sitting there". They are all useful. What I'm saying is that, unlike armies like lizards or ogres, high elves really don't want to use their core as their combat units. White Lions, Phoenix Guard, Frost Phoenixs, etc., are all much better as combat units than anything in the core.

 

[Pepticsalve]

None of these are really "sitting there". They are all useful. What I'm saying is that, unlike armies like lizards or ogres, high elves really don't want to use their core as their combat units. White Lions, Phoenix Guard, Frost Phoenixs, etc., are all much better as combat units than anything in the core.

I do get what you are saying - I sort of meant my comment directed more at his use of silver helms as a wizard bunker and not really wanting them to get into combat... IMO Silver helms are designed for getting into position quickly and flank/rear charging while an enemy combat block is tied up against a tarpit, such as spearmen... Sitting them away from the battle just to protect a wizard is a bit of a waste of points IMO - but thats just my opinion! I'm probably wrong!

Archers are good against some armies - I wouldn't be at all scared about facing archers if I was fielding a saurus heavy lizard army...

End of the day high elf core is pretty weak - no getting around that fact. Most armies have pretty weak core...