TOW Help me make this work - 2000

[discomute]

===
Models2 [2010 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Lizardmen
===

++ Characters [764 pts] ++

Slann Mage-Priest [400 pts]
- Hand weapon
- General
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Lore Familiar
- Higher State Of Mind
- Necromancy

Saurus Oldblood [364 pts]
- Great weapon
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Carnosaur
- Talisman of Protection
- Armour of Meteoric Iron

++ Core Units [502 pts] ++

20 Saurus Warriors [321 pts]
- Thrusting spears
- Shields
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Spawn Leader (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

11 Skink Skirmishers [60 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)
- Vanguard

11 Skink Skirmishers [71 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Blowpipes
- Light armour (Calloused hides)
- Patrol Leader (champion)

10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)

++ Special Units [544 pts] ++

Bastiladon [175 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Thunderous bludgeon
- Solar Engine

4 Kroxigors [203 pts]
- Great weapons
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Ancient (champion)

4 Ripperdactyl Riders [166 pts]
- Cavalry spears
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)
- Ripperdactyl Champion

++ Rare Units [200 pts] ++

Troglodon [200 pts]
- Venomous talons
- Vnom spray
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Skink Oracle with hand weapon (required)

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

Okay problem is that I'm just at 500 core with nothing obvious to drop to get under 2000. Options are:

- lore familiar and take elementalism. It's the obvious choice but I think less fun. My list is a Necro one!
- no champions for krox and ripper. Such an efficient way to get an extra attack and deal with, or make, challenges
- drop a krox (or ripper). Real issue of panic when one dies from missile fire
- no solar engine, I am leaning this way. It's hard to get off in 2000 and I'd want him in combat anyway with his terror. But when it works it's so good!

A better question might be - which is the worst of these options?

 

[BeardedLizard]

If going for necromancy/Illusion/High magic list, I would probably drop the champions from the options you've given. Lore familiar is a good drop if you're playing with Elementalism/Battle Magic.

If it was my list I would probably drop all Kroxigors and add a second Bastiladon with Solar Engine.

Solid looking list! Always happy to see the Troglodon.

 

[discomute]

If going for necromancy/Illusion/High magic list, I would probably drop the champions from the options you've given. Lore familiar is a good drop if you're playing with Elementalism/Battle Magic.

If it was my list I would probably drop all Kroxigors and add a second Bastiladon with Solar Engine.

Solid looking list! Always happy to see the Troglodon.

Thanks for the thoughts. I don't have a bastiladon model but truth is I love Kroxigor. They are squishy but they are alright. The champion is actually quite useful in there. Since they always strike last I'd issue a challenge regardless. If spreads the wounds out and makes it more likely you'll lose one. Literally last game first combat they got 3 dealt to them, but 1 was in the challenge so I kept all the Krox to swing back.

(But yes I have to cut something)

The Troglodon is my man! You should read my last battle report, he went off! For the first time ever haha.

 

[Kalisto]

If you encounter a character alone that champion would be a problem for you since you cannot refuse challenge mostly. So that reason i never play champion in kroxigors.

 

[discomute]

If you encounter a character alone that champion would be a problem for you since you cannot refuse challenge mostly. So that reason i never play champion in kroxigors.

Interesting point!

 

[Kalisto]

The same is also for alone dragonogres that often are champion, so not only characters

 

[airjamy]

===
Models2 [2010 pts]
Warhammer: The Old World, Lizardmen
===

++ Characters [764 pts] ++

Slann Mage-Priest [400 pts]
- Hand weapon
- General
- Battle Standard Bearer
- Lore Familiar
- Higher State Of Mind
- Necromancy

Saurus Oldblood [364 pts]
- Great weapon
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Carnosaur
- Talisman of Protection
- Armour of Meteoric Iron

++ Core Units [502 pts] ++

20 Saurus Warriors [321 pts]
- Thrusting spears
- Shields
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Spawn Leader (champion)
- Standard bearer
- Musician

11 Skink Skirmishers [60 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)
- Vanguard

11 Skink Skirmishers [71 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Blowpipes
- Light armour (Calloused hides)
- Patrol Leader (champion)

10 Skink Skirmishers [50 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)

++ Special Units [544 pts] ++

Bastiladon [175 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Javelins
- Thunderous bludgeon
- Solar Engine

4 Kroxigors [203 pts]
- Great weapons
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Ancient (champion)

4 Ripperdactyl Riders [166 pts]
- Cavalry spears
- Shields
- Light armour (Calloused hides)
- Ripperdactyl Champion

++ Rare Units [200 pts] ++

Troglodon [200 pts]
- Venomous talons
- Vnom spray
- Heavy armour (Scaly skin)
- Skink Oracle with hand weapon (required)

---
Created with "Old World Builder"

[https://old-world-builder.com]

Okay problem is that I'm just at 500 core with nothing obvious to drop to get under 2000. Options are:

- lore familiar and take elementalism. It's the obvious choice but I think less fun. My list is a Necro one!
- no champions for krox and ripper. Such an efficient way to get an extra attack and deal with, or make, challenges
- drop a krox (or ripper). Real issue of panic when one dies from missile fire
- no solar engine, I am leaning this way. It's hard to get off in 2000 and I'd want him in combat anyway with his terror. But when it works it's so good!

A better question might be - which is the worst of these options?

You are not filling up your character allotment. Really, drop that Trog and get another Carno or a Steg Chief in there, it is SO much better. I do not really see why you are running Necro.. Elementalism, Battle Magic and Illusion are all probably just better. Battle Magic for Pillar of Fire, Elementalism for PLague of Rust and Illusion for stopping the big monster on an 11+ and Pillar,, just nothing in Necro compares to that. Also, make your Oldblood the BSB! He really makes use well of the +1 CR the BSB gives him, the Slann does not use that at all. You are just running quite a few sub par options..

Also, your current list is illegal. You are not allowed Rippers without a Skink Hero. So you really do need to make some changes to the list to even make it legal, easiest way i see is to drop the Trog, maybe make the Oldblood a Scarvet (you do not lose that much) and get in a Skink Chief. I do not think you want to drop the Basti, you have a lot of I 1 and going before stomps and getting to I 5 on the charge is often a pretty big deal.

 

[discomute]

You are not filling up your character allotment. Really, drop that Trog and get another Carno or a Steg Chief in there, it is SO much better. I do not really see why you are running Necro.. Elementalism, Battle Magic and Illusion are all probably just better. Battle Magic for Pillar of Fire, Elementalism for PLague of Rust and Illusion for stopping the big monster on an 11+ and Pillar,, just nothing in Necro compares to that. Also, make your Oldblood the BSB! He really makes use well of the +1 CR the BSB gives him, the Slann does not use that at all. You are just running quite a few sub par options..

Also, your current list is illegal. You are not allowed Rippers without a Skink Hero. So you really do need to make some changes to the list to even make it legal, easiest way i see is to drop the Trog, maybe make the Oldblood a Scarvet (you do not lose that much) and get in a Skink Chief. I do not think you want to drop the Basti, you have a lot of I 1 and going before stomps and getting to I 5 on the charge is often a pretty big deal.

Oldbloods can't be bsbs.

You are so right about the skinks hero that is absolutely brutal I just ordered some more rippers to make an army list, wtf sort of nonsensical restriction is that GW?

I love the Troglodon and the model and the lore even if it sucks. Which it does.

 

[airjamy]

Oldbloods can't be bsbs.

You are so right about the skinks hero that is absolutely brutal I just ordered some more rippers to make an army list, wtf sort of nonsensical restriction is that GW?

I love the Troglodon and the model and the lore even if it sucks. Which it does.

I meant that you should make him a scarvet and then the BSB, would just be better i think. 50 points cheaper, you get +1 CR on him? Sounds worth it to me. And yeah, the restriction is annoying, also really hampers Terrabombing lists due to not being able to go double Carno if you want a Slann..

And sure. But the trog is bad, still.

 

[discomute]

I meant that you should make him a scarvet and then the BSB, would just be better i think. 50 points cheaper, you get +1 CR on him? Sounds worth it to me. And yeah, the restriction is annoying, also really hampers Terrabombing lists due to not being able to go double Carno if you want a Slann..

And sure. But the trog is bad, still.

I think scarvet is the only option. 50 points for +1ws, +1a and +1w is amazing I think so the downgrade will hurt. Particularly the WS, so many things we face seem to be ws5. So 5 attacks at 3+ compared to 4 at 4+. Brutal. And the BSB saved my butt twice last game, the Slann tends to be central whereas the carno tends to frenzy itself off the board as soon as possible.

The restriciton doesn't make sense from a lore or balance perspective. The more I play the more I think a miniscule of effort has gone into our army book. I can grab a hero and put him on a ripper to make 4, maybe even additional hand weapon for the poison attack. But it may be that rippers are just not worth running, as fun as they are.

In terms of Necromantic, I actually think it's quite viable. Unquiet spirits is an good magic missile and an amazing one against cavalry. One of the best in the game I think. The two spells that attack leadership go well with three terror causing monsters. You'd take monsoon if they had missile weapons and the other hex if they didn't but I wouldn't expect much out of either. I think Necro is second to elementalism personally, but it forces you to take a lore familiar as there is so much garbage there.

I think pillar of fire is garbage. It will just get dispelled before it does anything. I think nearly all vortexes are rubbish. The Necro one you can at least get use from before they get a straight dispel attempt against it.

 

[airjamy]

I think scarvet is the only option. 50 points for +1ws, +1a and +1w is amazing I think so the downgrade will hurt. Particularly the WS, so many things we face seem to be ws5. So 5 attacks at 3+ compared to 4 at 4+. Brutal. And the BSB saved my butt twice last game, the Slann tends to be central whereas the carno tends to frenzy itself off the board as soon as possible.

The restriciton doesn't make sense from a lore or balance perspective. The more I play the more I think a miniscule of effort has gone into our army book. I can grab a hero and put him on a ripper to make 4, maybe even additional hand weapon for the poison attack. But it may be that rippers are just not worth running, as fun as they are.

In terms of Necromantic, I actually think it's quite viable. Unquiet spirits is an good magic missile and an amazing one against cavalry. One of the best in the game I think. The two spells that attack leadership go well with three terror causing monsters. You'd take monsoon if they had missile weapons and the other hex if they didn't but I wouldn't expect much out of either. I think Necro is second to elementalism personally, but it forces you to take a lore familiar as there is so much garbage there.

I think pillar of fire is garbage. It will just get dispelled before it does anything. I think nearly all vortexes are rubbish. The Necro one you can at least get use from before they get a straight dispel attempt against it.

The difference aint that big really. The +1 CR does more. Try it if you do not believe me. Definitely the second Carno that you can make fit if you take 2 scarvets and drop that Trog will 100% make it worth it. It is not about the rerolls to LD, it is about the +1CR. And 18 inch bubble is still quite big.

All of Elementalism is good.. Wind Blast is a great missile, Rust is of course fantastic, the walls are good on any Saurus unit as they are not charging anyway. I think it is the less Lore Familiar reliant lore? the Elemental is not as good as Pillar.

You are probably playing the vortex spells incorrectly if you think they are bad. Do not forget you are still dispelling the wizard and not the vortex itself. Just park your slann outside of dispel range, send in the vortex, and they will have to do a fated while Pillar of Fire ravages their lines as they have no opportunity to move before they have to dispel in their command phase. Pillar is a great spell, only people i have heard saying they are bad were measuring dispelling from the vortex itself and not the wizard. And as you can move it, any gap that is less that 3 inches will make it so your Pillar flies through all of them as the Pillar cannot end on a unit. I have had my Pillars do like damage to 5 units in a single turn,, it is one of the best spells in the game, deletes skirmishers, ap-2 makes it so even Demigryphs do not exactly love being hit by hit. Against T6 models you can fish for 6s,, it is just good.

 

[discomute]

The difference aint that big really. The +1 CR does more. Try it if you do not believe me. Definitely the second Carno that you can make fit if you take 2 scarvets and drop that Trog will 100% make it worth it. It is not about the rerolls to LD, it is about the +1CR. And 18 inch bubble is still quite big.

All of Elementalism is good.. Wind Blast is a great missile, Rust is of course fantastic, the walls are good on any Saurus unit as they are not charging anyway. I think it is the less Lore Familiar reliant lore? the Elemental is not as good as Pillar.

You are probably playing the vortex spells incorrectly if you think they are bad. Do not forget you are still dispelling the wizard and not the vortex itself. Just park your slann outside of dispel range, send in the vortex, and they will have to do a fated while Pillar of Fire ravages their lines as they have no opportunity to move before they have to dispel in their command phase. Pillar is a great spell, only people i have heard saying they are bad were measuring dispelling from the vortex itself and not the wizard. And as you can move it, any gap that is less that 3 inches will make it so your Pillar flies through all of them as the Pillar cannot end on a unit. I have had my Pillars do like damage to 5 units in a single turn,, it is one of the best spells in the game, deletes skirmishers, ap-2 makes it so even Demigryphs do not exactly love being hit by hit. Against T6 models you can fish for 6s,, it is just good.

Pillar of fire has a 12 inch range and is cast after movement

Getting out of dispel range means you need to be 25 inches from their wizard who is probably on their line

And you can scatter it 13+ inches when it moves d6 inches? I guess they come towards you but still...

 

[airjamy]

Pillar of fire has a 12 inch range and is cast after movement

Getting out of dispel range means you need to be 25 inches from their wizard who is probably on their line

And you can scatter it 13+ inches when it moves d6 inches? I guess they come towards you but still...

You do not really need to reach their battle line with it, it is mainly a chaff cleaning tool. I mean, think about how that thing makes a total mess of a unit of Skinks, stuff like Outriders, Reavers, even things like Knights of the Realm do not like being hit by that.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Your Krox and Rippers shouldn't be fighting challenges, so its really wasted on them

 

[Kalisto]

Your Krox and Rippers shouldn't be fighting challenges, so its really wasted on them

Well champion in ripperdactyl may be useful if you have an hero inside it, either is wasted. On kroxigor I don’t see any reason to play it, you just risky to be challenged even if you don’t want !

 

[discomute]

Well champion in ripperdactyl may be useful if you have an hero inside it, either is wasted. On kroxigor I don’t see any reason to play it, you just risky to be challenged even if you don’t want !

Yeah I agree. I think I'm splitting the lists, one with the Necro, trog and terror and one with the rippers.