7th Ed. Help! How to deal with Long-ranged armies?

[The Hunted]

Ok guys,

I need your help for this matter. As it seems, I just cannot win versus long-ranged armies.
A long-ranged army is not a gunline, but something like this:
(actually this is the list my HE opponent now uses, and i'm Struggling!)

1x HE Noble, BSB, GW, HA, Battle Banner (maybe more protection)
1x HE Mage, lvl 2, choose spells, +1 PD

1x17 HE Spearmen, FC

1x5 Silver Helms FC
1x5 Silver Helms FC

2x RBT.

Or the Empire variant:

1x Hero, on horse. Good armour, semi-good offense (equipment varies)
1x Hero, on horse. Good armour, only good on charge
1x Hero, on horse, BSB of 'me and my unit are stubborn'. Good armour.

1x25 Swordsmen
*Detachment: 10 Free company
*Detachment: 6 Handgunners

1x20 Greatswords
*Detachment 6 Handgunners
*Detachment: ~5 troopers.

1x5 Nilla Knights, Musician
1x6 Inner Circle Knights, FC (Hammer)
2x Great Cannon

So,
The thing is: If i move up my opponents move back and fire. (especially the HE's)
If i stay back, they move up AND fire...
IF i try to set a trap, or try to maneouvre into a good position: they move back (ignoring the trap), or double-charge, or fire away, usually doing 2 of the former..
Now: I don't actually OWn a lot of models, but my group is very relaxed about proxying. The only thing i cannot proxy is a Stegadon.

Before i forget: we pretty much always play at 1k or 1250 points.
Things i do have, 1x15 Saurus, FC
1x 10 skink skirmisher
1x10 skink cohort
1xSaurus Hero on foot

I Tried using kroxigor (in unit of 3) but they just don't cut it, I refuse to use them for 5 games. Then i'll see...
Terradons...well I think i'm too cautios with them, or too stupid. Anyways, they don't tend to do an awfull lot...(Yes, i know about the cover and all that. But somehow they Always get shot down...)
So, please guys. Could somebody give me a hand? and Help me?

Thanks,

The Hunted

 

[strewart]

Hmmm how are they moving and firing? I see nothing in either list that has the ability to move and shoot, unless you count mages. Gunpowder troops can't, and certainly none of the warmachines can.

Definitely the key is getting the warmachines, in small battles they are really deadly. You have already tried terradons, and yes they are vulnerable to shooting if they get targetted, maybe you should use some of your skinks as charmeleon skinks? Scout and deploy close to the warmachines, either shoot them from short range or charge them. Be careful of how you set them up and the cannon should only be able to hit a max of 1 maybe two models if it even decides to target them, the others will have a hard time hitting especially if you can stay in or behind some terrain.

They do look like tough lists for 1k armies though.

 

[kroxigor01]

How much terrain are you playing with? There should be enough terrain so your Terradons can deploy out of sight, move 20" into cover halfway up the board and then another 20" to drop rocks/javelin some warmachines by turn 3.

Another ploy is to deploy a large LoS terrain infront of any hills he places and then just advancing behind a wall of skink skirmishers (with Terradons leaping forward to deliver drop rocks ASAP).

 

[Revered_Guardian]

You could consider a skink screen so that they get -1 to shooting, or a chameleon skink screen if you REALLY want to annoy them.

Terradons for the war machines!

Oh, and an EOTG will help you with a 5+ ward

 

[The Hunted]

@strewart: The gunners don't move and fire, they stand way back and fire. But the troops/knights/heroes just move back in order to shoot 2 more rounds.
Maybe i'm unaware of the Drop Rocks on warmachine crews? But they're randomised AFAIK, so i wont kill the crew...

@kroxigor01: We usually have enough terrain to 'hide' stuff in/behind. But there's also a big open plain 90% of the time, and that's exactly the spot where all his VP are (so i can win) but also where i get shot to death.
Going round the flanks is tougher than it looks, through all the terrain and knights...

@Revered_Guardian: I did not really consider cameleons yet, as they seem pricey for skinks!
I'll give them a go though, to see if they can do the job.

The Warmachines I can deal with, but the knights are the things that give me REAL headaches, so WM are easily countered by Terries.
Next question: How to deal with the knights? (Silver Helms, Dragon Princes, Knights of the Empire, and Inner Circle Knights)
So 'supporting knights' and real hammer knights. Oh, Btw: No matter what the Armour Save modifier: they make the save one way or another...it's insane! 5 5+ AS? 1 kill...
2 6+? 0..stuff like that...

Anyways, Hoping for your support and Thanks in advance!

The Hunted

 

[slaan]

salamanders

 

[Caneghem]

Do not take any sort of stegadon against that list. 2 great cannons will easily rip multi wound models to shreds. The same applies to kroxigors tucked into skink units.

Take a flying skink priest with the rod of storms and another skink priest to keep behind the troops and buff them with portent of far. Take a couple blocks of plain saurus. Take a good number of skink skirmishers to screen up front and some ranked skinks as well. Chameleon skinks and terradons will also serve you well. Take a salamander with extra handler, but be careful about exposing it to cannon line of sight. You'll want to use skirmishers and chameleon skinks to screen your terradons and salamander until they can get into good positions. If he likes to park his cannons on a hill (sounds like the type who always just so happens to have a hill in his deployment zone), don't forget that terradons can drop rocks on the turn they charge. Sure the cannon will probably pop a terradon, but it can only kill 1 at most if you place the terradons properly. Second turn charge the cannon and drop rocks on one of his more annoying detachments.. I'll cook up a quick list for you.

 

[Caneghem]

The List:

Characters
Skink Priest, Lvl 2, Cloak of Feathers, Rod of the Storm
Scar Veteran, Charm of the Jaguar Warrior, GW, LA, SH
Skink Priest, Lvl 2

Core
Saurus Warriors x 15, muso, std, spears
Saurus Warriors x 15, muso, std, spears
Skinks x 10, muso
Skink Skirmishers x 10
Skink Skirmishers x 10

Special
Chameleon Skinks x 7
Terradon Riders x 4

Rare
Salamander Pack, extra handler

Exactly 1250 points

Time to have some fun! You have 2 level 2 casters, so you have a decent shot at rolling up Uranon's Thunderbolt for some knight toasting. If not, you get a freebie in the form of the Rod of the Storm. By the way, empire troops HATE Comet of Casandora, and you have a decent shot at casting it on 3 dice (I also noticed the opponent neglected his magic defense) If he chooses to dispel that you will probably get your flying Scar-Veteran of doom to charge into them and crush them with his great weapon. Failing all of that, the salamander has a decent chance of killing knights with its -3 armor save mod. If all of those things don't work, then the problem is not with your list....

Anyway, I would deploy the Saurus 6 across versus empire, because nobody beats them in the department of ranks and flanks.. However empire troops are easy to gobble up with str 4 attacks, and having a 6 wide frontage gives you 4 more spear attacks. You may also find the opportunity to block out a detachment flank charge, since they still need to be able to get to your flank legally (they don't just teleport there). You have a unit of 10 skinks to flee charges and to get shot up a bit, and the muso will help them be sure to rally. They really are just a distraction unit. The two skirmishers are vital for screening your softer stuff, like terradons and the salamander.

The chameleons are great, because with their -2 to be shot at (-3 in a forest!), they only need to worry about being charged. They work best just harassing enemy shooting units. Pop them out of a forest 6 inches in front of an empire handgun detachment, and blast away with their accurate shooting. Should the gunners feel brave enough to charge next turn, they get plastered with a double shot stand and shoot. The Terradons are always useful, and they help in a key role vs the kind of army that flees charges... They just land behind the unit your big block of Saurus is charging from 7.5 inches away... now the unit can't flee the charge, and if and when the Saurus take it down, the Terradons ensure that it will be destroyed regardless of whether the Saurus catch it or not. Oh yeah, don't forget to drop rocks and take out a warmachine while you're waiting for the main line to engage.

The Salamander is a wonderful thing, just work it up one flank or the other, since that is usually where the knights are anyway. You have lots of magic and the SCar Vet to clobber knights now, but don't be afraid to throw some salamander breath their way. A failed panic check (followed by the unit fleeing through its own line) is sometimes better than outright destroying the unit.

So there you have it, I think this list is more than a match for whatever the puny high elves and empire can field. The wisdom and fury of the Old Ones will surely win out.

Don't Forget: Always cast Portent of Far on your flying Scar-Vet on turns where you expect him to charge into an important combat. I'm thinking of times where he's charging into a unit of knights and he really needs to do those wounds to win combat. At Str 7 and with superior weapon skill (for the most part) he'll hit on 3's and wound on 2's... portent really boosts his damage averages.

Let us know how it goes.