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Heavens watch

Dylanmaunder
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Dylanmaunder

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This looks all monsters from this formation heal a wound each hero phase also you can use trap is sprung sounds really good having a 60 point salamander or razor-dons heal a wound. also iv been told salamanders are good how are razor-dons
my other question is can you include the same bastelodon in two formations.
 
You're in the part of the forum, this should be moved to AOS. I prefer razordons to salamanders. That instinctive defense is great.
No your bastiladon would only be in one formation. It cannot fill a spot in two different Batallions. If you wanted a second formation with a bastiladon you would need to add another.
 
sorry so razor-dons are a bit more of a tanky unit that you use against battle line and the salamander looks like a scary hero or monster killer
 
Yeah, that -2 rend does a number on high defense units.
 
Can an admin move this to the AoS section please?
 
Razordons vs. Salamanders is a difficult question IMO.
The problem with Salamanders is: If they hit they do a lot of damage, but in my experience the problem is that they have only one attack. So let's do the math:

Both die rather quickly so I'll ignore melee for now. This is only ranged damage.

Salamander:
One attack, 66% chance to hit, 66% chance to wound. That means ~44% chance of doing _something_ to a unit within 8".
If you take Handlers for 40 points it is 12".
Even someone with an ideal save has only a 50% chance to save against those, that's good. So let's assume a 4+ saving enemy like Ironjawz and you get around 83% of doing damage with your hits.
If you hit you do D6 damage and then have a 50/50 chance to do D3 more. So you average around 4 damage.

All in all that means that a Salamander hits in about half of your rounds, doing 4 damage. We end around just below 2 Damage per round on average if I didn't do something wrong there.

Razordon:
rerolls hits of one if you have Handlers near, and rend -1 if the enemy is close (6"). That attack of opportunity is nice but only 50% chance, I'll ignore it for now and take the reliable stuff.
2D6 attacks (average 6), 33% chance of doing _something_ (66% hit, 50% wound) to a unit within 12".
Someone with a +4 save will save half of it, so you end up with around one damage per round on average.

Now, that sounds like the Salamander would be better judging from pure damage. And in melee the Salamander also wins (same number of attacks, but 3+ hit instead of 4+ and it has rend), no question.
But the 12" range and the fact that the higher number of attacks doesn't make it that much "all or nothing" makes the Razordon better IMO. Razordons are also less reliant on their Handlers, because you can get re-rolls of hits also from Slann or from Astrolith Bearers. I play two and I normally don't play Handlers. They seldom do less than 2 damage a round for me.

In any case you should play more than one. two or three is pretty good IMO.


Bottom line: Most of the time Razordons are better IMO. They also look better.
Against well armored enemies Salamanders are better because of rend and mortal wounds.
 
It's the difference between a gatling gun and a cannon. Personally I prefer the Salamanders because they do a couple of things that our army doesn't really have -- artillery and mortal wounds. I feel Seraphon already has plenty of options for clearing out hordes which is what a gatling gun is for. Moon hammers, sunfire throwers, sauruses and skinks. What we need is a ranged, high rend, high damage attack that can help us assassinate high priority targets. This is where the Beam of Chotec and Salamanders come in.

Bastiladons are a huge target. The opponent will be focusing a lot of attention on it and sending waves of cheap hordes to hold it up. A 20" range is good and all but if you are swamped by Orruks on turn 1 you will likely be focusing that beam into your combat to try and get free before you get overwhelmed and killed. But along creeps these Sallies that your opponent ignored and combined with some rerolls (with which the single, high value attacks synergize very well) and blamm-o!
 
Aginor said:
Razordons vs. Salamanders is a difficult question IMO.
The problem with Salamanders is: If they hit they do a lot of damage, but in my experience the problem is that they have only one attack. So let's do the math:

Both die rather quickly so I'll ignore melee for now. This is only ranged damage.

Salamander:
One attack, 66% chance to hit, 66% chance to wound. That means ~44% chance of doing _something_ to a unit within 8".
If you take Handlers for 40 points it is 12".
Even someone with an ideal save has only a 50% chance to save against those, that's good. So let's assume a 4+ saving enemy like Ironjawz and you get around 83% of doing damage with your hits.
If you hit you do D6 damage and then have a 50/50 chance to do D3 more. So you average around 4 damage.

All in all that means that a Salamander hits in about half of your rounds, doing 4 damage. We end around just below 2 Damage per round on average if I didn't do something wrong there.

Razordon:
rerolls hits of one if you have Handlers near, and rend -1 if the enemy is close (6"). That attack of opportunity is nice but only 50% chance, I'll ignore it for now and take the reliable stuff.
2D6 attacks (average 6), 33% chance of doing _something_ (66% hit, 50% wound) to a unit within 12".
Someone with a +4 save will save half of it, so you end up with around one damage per round on average.

Now, that sounds like the Salamander would be better judging from pure damage. And in melee the Salamander also wins (same number of attacks, but 3+ hit instead of 4+ and it has rend), no question.
But the 12" range and the fact that the higher number of attacks doesn't make it that much "all or nothing" makes the Razordon better IMO. Razordons are also less reliant on their Handlers, because you can get re-rolls of hits also from Slann or from Astrolith Bearers. I play two and I normally don't play Handlers. They seldom do less than 2 damage a round for me.

In any case you should play more than one. two or three is pretty good IMO.


Bottom line: Most of the time Razordons are better IMO. They also look better.
Against well armored enemies Salamanders are better because of rend and mortal wounds.
Click to expand...

Never played them so far since I consider their models to literally be the one of the few really ugly models GW has right now but I couldn't agree more.
I would only table them with rerollable hit / wound or both ideally and even then they are too situational. 8" is bad no matter how you see it and if the opponents know the threat they can clear them out before they even get to hit
 
Seraphage said:
Never played them so far since I consider their models to literally be the one of the few really ugly models GW has right now but I couldn't agree more.
I would only table them with rerollable hit / wound or both ideally and even then they are too situational. 8" is bad no matter how you see it and if the opponents know the threat they can clear them out before they even get to hit
Click to expand...

For 60 points they sound good. plus they can be buffed by skink handler's so they shoot at 12". how ever i don't know if other army's simply do every thing the serophon can do better it certainly sounding like it.
im getting second thoughts about serophon i was told by multiple people at my store that they are good it seems like there is a lot of negativity by people who have a lot of experience with this army.
so far i have a scar vet on a carno and 30 warriors 8 knights and 10 skinks might be better off just considering a thunder quake and shadow strike and then going else where. going pure serophon sounds like a handy cap. And when i sell my kidney i probably will have enough money for the Dread.
 
Dylanmaunder said:
what would you recommend.
Click to expand...

That's just a ridiculously open question....

As always, just pick what you think looks cool. If you're aiming to win tournaments then you need to cut your teeth first. If you're not, then it doesn't really matter.
 
i was hoping for better then that OK order go nuts.. im thinking a blood claw and or thunder quake bastelodon group. add a slann + priest with trappings. so tanky artillery unit/ punching bag. plus assault group that got lot of battleshock units. could add a Dread just to force battle shock -2 bravery from dread -1 from standard on saurus warriors. suddenly bravery 7 6 units are in trouble. kill general get rid of inspiring presence. shadow strike may be good for this also. iv already got saurus warriors for battle line i need some thing mortal wound spamming. oh celestrial hurricanum this will support bloodclaw group and add mortal wound generation to that unit. add a jade priest for artillery unit and make it ridiculously hard to kill.

ultimately i need to fight cheese with chesse. not that it will do me much good. i play eldar and i still can't beat the power players.
 
Dylanmaunder said:
i was hoping for better then that OK order go nuts.. im thinking a blood claw and or thunder quake bastelodon group. add a slann + priest with trappings. so tanky artillery unit/ punching bag. plus assault group that got lot of battleshock units. could add a Dread just to force battle shock -2 bravery from dread -1 from standard on saurus warriors. suddenly bravery 7 6 units are in trouble. kill general get rid of inspiring presence. shadow strike may be good for this also. iv already got saurus warriors for battle line i need some thing mortal wound spamming. oh celestrial hurricanum this will support bloodclaw group and add mortal wound generation to that unit. add a jade priest for artillery unit and make it ridiculously hard to kill.

ultimately i need to fight cheese with chesse. not that it will do me much good. i play eldar and i still can't beat the power players.
Click to expand...

Hurricanium and Kurnoth Hunters are 2 of the best order units I can think off.
 
Celestial hurricanum, Gryph-Hound, Kurnoth hunters, battlemage, Helstorm Rocket Battery.
Here is my favourite build:

Leaders
Skink Chief (60)
- General
- Golden Sickle
- Trait: Master of Defense
- phoenix stone
Skink Starpriest (100)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (320)
- phoenix stone
Battlemage (100)

Battleline
10 x Skinks (80)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (80)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (80)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

Units
3 x Razordons (180)
3 x Skink Handlers (40)
1 x Gryph-Hound (40)

Behemoths
Bastiladon (300)
Troglodon (200)
Bastiladon (300)

Battalions
Thunderquake Starhost (120)

Here is a variation using those:
Leaders
Skink Chief (60)
- General
- Golden Sickle
- Trait: Master of Defense
Skink Starpriest (100)
Celestial Hurricanum With Celestial Battlemage (320)
- Artefact: Phoenix Stone
Battlemage (100)

Battleline
10 x Skinks (80)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (80)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers
10 x Skinks (80)
- Boltspitters & Star Bucklers

Units
1 x Gryph-Hound (40)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Scythes

Behemoths
Bastiladon (300)
Bastiladon (300)

War Machines
Helstorm Rocket Battery (180)

2000/2000
Both lists are cheesey and will be tournament worthy.
 
so your taking the battle mage with life surge to support the Hurricanum?. another good combo i see is soul steel. if i park a troglodon -1 dread -2 standard -1 so minus 4- unfortunately the battle mage is a coward i don't suppose you can buff his bravery some how add a commissar perhaps?. be really funny if you could do 6 7 mortal wounds to storm cast i would be crying with laughter you would have to snipe the general.

id take one skink handler unit then have them working all three of the razor dons and have them acting as a shield. or are you planning on spreading them out? on the flanks i don't know if your doing that as you got a gryph hound in the list i like them that sound Hilarious if you use them with razor don. 10" i get to make a shot oh your with 3" of my razor don's they can make another shot.
 
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Battlemage is a bit of a coward, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem. But yeah, stormfiends or storm cast pop up and they get a ton of shooting at them because of the Gryph-Hound
 
Bowser said:
Battlemage is a bit of a coward, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem. But yeah, stormfiends or storm cast pop up and they get a ton of shooting at them because of the Gryph-Hound
Click to expand...

iv just re read it does not say a battle shock test so there for you don't need to snipe the general he would have no effect against this.
 
Huh. Just thinking about Razordons, and noticed a fun thing:
Theoretically, if you have a Gryph Hound near they might shoot three times in one round.
- Enemy sets up a unit, Gryph Hound triggers the first volley
- Enemy charges near the Razordons, 50% chance they all shoot again
- shooting phase of your turn, they shoot the third time in this round.

Yeah, I know, not exactly likely to happen, but it would be hilarious. :D
 
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