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[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I am aware the Romans were masters of classical siege weapons.
The main issue is that basicly every faction in WHF that has any sort of technology has at minimum classical era siege weapons.
And sure, maybe a roman scorpion is better than an greenskin bolt throwa, but it's not going to give the same advantage as a hellstorm battery gives when fighting orcs.

It is a lot more portable and requires less crew... it is also likely cheaper to make and requires less complex materials to fashion, meaning it could be fielded in, say, batteries of 3+ models, which would then raise its effectiveness to around the same level of lethality or greater as a single Helstorm (which, is, funnily enough, generally agreed to be one of the worst Empire war machines - unreliable and really just a Mortar with more shots in many ways). Not to mention that, if Roman military ingenuity had been applied for a few more centuries as per my what-if scenario (this is fantasy after all), it's entirely possible that a repeater version could have been pioneered. You've said yourself that these are the "masters" of siege weaponry we're talking about here (for humans anyway)... it certainly wouldn't be out of place to consider that the faction's main strength should be War Machines - certainly on par with Empire despite the technology difference... it would be the case of 'more reliable but older tech vs less reliable but newer tech'.

Also, minor sidenote; elves in warhammer tend to have greek/roman inspiration (among other things). They still need their magic, superhuman ability, and immortality to stand up against the various monsters.

To be honest, only the barest inklings of Greco-Roman inspiration can be seen on Warhammer Fantasy Elves. Not to mention that comparing any human faction to Elves is like swings and roundabouts... Elves are innately magical creatures as part of the lore, and of course they'd have to be masters of magic as a result to avoid a plot hole. Their immortality specifically hasn't done them much good - they're a declining race in the Warhammer Fantasy setting. Not to mention that in-game their 'superhuman ability' merely translates to a point of extra Movement and a couple of extra points of Initiative - enough to differentiate them as a race, but not game-changing in terms of 'standing up to monsters'. It's almost as easy to kill an Elf in-game as it is a human.

I'm not sure if I'd still count that as Roman empire if you give them several centuries of innovation. That just sounds like renaissance italian city states with a dash of roman flavour.

Not if the whole nation was actually unified, saved political feuding for behind-the-scenes and its whole modus operandi was oriented around maintaining and advancing its army, logistics and fortifications over everything else, specifically to ensure it survives in a world of monsters... then it would be Rome with a dash of Renaissance Italian City States flavour . Renaissance Italy was a massive step-down from Rome at its peak in terms of population, organisation, culture and military discipline, and I'm sure it has been discussed before how it's a miracle that GW's version of Tilea, divided, bickering and backstabbing as Renaissance Italy always was, actually survives when there are so many monsters around. Hell, the Warhammer Empire is also a massive step-down from Ancient Rome in terms of organisation and military discipline (and again, being crippled by inter-state rivalries is both a disadvantage and, arguably, a plot hole - why fight each other when there are so many monsters out there to defend against). I mean... I'm doubtful there is even a Warhammer Fantasy faction that has the level of military discipline that Ancient Rome did (perhaps Cathay? I remain sceptical).

Indeed, a faction that is dedicated to its military first and foremost, and has Army Special Rules dedicated to discipline and tactical acumen would go a long way towards defining its originality in comparison to all the others in terms of mechanics and gameplay. Access to better armour than the likes of the Empire and the most reliable non-black-powder artillery in the game would also be its defining features.

 

[Canas]

Not to mention that, if Roman military ingenuity had been applied for a few more centuries as per my what-if scenario (this is fantasy after all), it's entirely possible that a repeater version could have been pioneered.

Sure, and if you take it far enough you eventually get ultrasmurfs. But I wouldn't exactly call that the Roman empire anymore

Not to mention that in-game their 'superhuman ability' merely translates to a point of extra Movement and a couple of extra points of Initiative - enough to differentiate them as a race, but not game-changing in terms of 'standing up to monsters'. It's almost as easy to kill an Elf in-game as it is a human.

I'm talking purely fluff-wise. The fact that in-game it translates into a basic +1 in some stat is kind of a necessary evil. Similarly, space marines aren't the demi-gods of war on the tabletop they are in the lore. Just imagine how terrible a game you'd get if you'd need to field imperial guard armies with 1000 models v.s. 3 space marine models. And lore wise it still wouldn't be fair for the regular mortals.

I'm sure it has been discussed before how it's a miracle that GW's version of Tilea, divided, bickering and backstabbing as Renaissance Italy always was, actually survives when there are so many monsters around.

Yeah, its kind of a common plothole in a lot fantasy/sci-fi. Writers suck at explaining why certain factions survive for no reason.

I mean... I'm doubtful there is even a Warhammer Fantasy faction that has the level of military discipline that Ancient Rome did (perhaps Cathay? I remain sceptical).

High elves and dwarves both have disciplined armies. Their fighting styles emulate the manipular system and organisation, making it easy to rotate in fresh troops, for support troops to move around, and for the army to plug gaps.

Course this would require a fairly standard army. Something like a Slayer army would not be as disciplined.

Empire can be disciplined if you focus on their professional armies. Which isn't surprising. After all, the development of pike & shot in the renaissance is an evolution, and resurgence, of roman tactics. Unfortunately, most empire armies aren't exactly professional.

Tomb kings are disciplined. Though they don't have the need for strategies like a manipular system since they won't get tired.

Cathay is also pretty disciplined, and unlike the empire Cathay seems to have much more profesional armies.

Indeed, a faction that is dedicated to its military first and foremost, and has Army Special Rules dedicated to discipline and tactical acumen would go a long way towards defining its originality in comparison to all the others in terms of mechanics and gameplay. Access to better armour than the likes of the Empire and the most reliable non-black-powder artillery in the game would also be its defining features.

Tactical acument & discipline is something plenty of factions have. That really doesn't stand out in of itself, or at least not enough.
Roman armour was never amazing. What was amazing was their logistics and ability to supply entire armies with that armour while their opponents often only really had their elites wearing proper armour. Their artillery is solid for the time. But against magic & blackpowder it loses a lot of it's shine. Sure you can always say your fantasy artillery is super duper effective cuz a genius designed it or some such. But that doesn't change that you can't use a balista like a mortar, so you can't shoot in melee. Similarly, you don't have a handgun equivalent, so it's not like a squad of romans can just poke over a wall and open fire to take down a bunch of orcs. And while a scorpion might be relativly portable, it still requires an entire team to lug around & its firerate makes it unsuitable against hordes of enemies; it's no ratling gun.

Also, and probably most importantly; the roman legionaire just kind of sucks against superhuman monsters. A gladius is short, and a scutum shieldwall isn't going to stop a monster. And unfortunately for the Roman, their legionaires are their main military tool. Unlike the Empire, whose main tool is their gunpowder supported by heavy cavalry.

So you'll need to explain 1 basic thing:
How the hell do legionairs fight against the various monsters without relying on magic superpowers and without losing their identify as Romans?

And just to re-iterate: this is all with a focus on lore/fluff. For the tabletop it's easy enough to fix the numbers for things to work.

As an aside; where can I find your fantasy faction? Maybe you already anwserd the questions in detail there.

 

[J.Logan]

Their artillery is solid for the time. But against magic & blackpowder it loses a lot of it's shine. Sure you can always say your fantasy artillery is super duper effective cuz a genius designed it or some such. But that doesn't change that you can't use a balista like a mortar, so you can't shoot in melee. Similarly, you don't have a handgun equivalent, so it's not like a squad of romans can just poke over a wall and open fire to take down a bunch of orcs. And while a scorpion might be relativly portable, it still requires an entire team to lug around & its firerate makes it unsuitable against hordes of enemies; it's no ratling gun.

Also, and probably most importantly; the roman legionaire just kind of sucks against superhuman monsters. A gladius is short, and a scutum shieldwall isn't going to stop a monster. And unfortunately for the Roman, their legionaires are their main military tool. Unlike the Empire, whose main tool is their gunpowder supported by heavy cavalry.

I rather wonder if you're a touch too focused on the historical Roman aspect, and less on the fantasy potential. We have Bretonnians who also use outdated military doctrine, but work around that by being "blessed by Ze Lady" and having plate armour that is amongst the best in the setting (bleh, complimenting the Lady Botherers). So, in a hypothetical Roman Empire analogue in WFB, there is little reason to assume that they haven't got some divine boosting from a god or god-adjacent deity.

This is also a setting where certain mythological creatures are real. Nothing saying a Roman general can't ride his pet hydra into battle. ;-P

You bring up the Empire being supported by heavy cavalry, which the Romans didn't have; but I see no reason that the Romans wouldn't have adopted heavy cavalry if they'd still been around when stirrups were first introduced to Europe. The Romans did so like appropriating things for themselves. The gladius could be phased out for a longer blade, or for spears if they are drilled enough to not accidentally throw them instead of their pilums.

Now sure, you bring up the idea of "how much can you change and have it still be recognisably based on the Roman Empire?", and that IS a valid question. One I'm not able to answer, as the project isn't mine - the closest I have is a Byzantine-analogue holdout barely surviving in the Border Princes, which is a different kettle of fish. But that question can also be levied at the Empire, who are the fantasy version to the Holy Roman Empire, and we aren't pointing at the Steam Tanks and saying that they disqualify them from still being the fantasy HRE.

My main interest here is because a Greco-Roman theme was my original idea for a themed lizardman conversion, before I settled on eccentric 1700's redcoats.

 

[Canas]

I rather wonder if you're a touch too focused on the historical Roman aspect, and less on the fantasy potential.

I'm focused on it since we were talking about a Roman-esque faction that is similar to the Empire in the sense that it's 99% just regular guys somehow surviving in a world of magic and monsters. The empire mostly relies on pike & shot. Not magic, not monsters, not blessings from a divine Lady. Just regular dudes with long pointy sticks and things that go kaboom. Sure, they have wizards and demigryphs, but those are extremely rare (lore-wise... course on the tabletop this may not be the case due to how things are balanced )

In contrast, Brettonia relies on the Lady's blessing. The unblessed peasants of Brettonia wouldn't survive for long without their literal knights in shiny armour to do the heavy lifting for them.

If we move away from being mostly regular mortals, and make them a more magical faction similar to Brettonia (or just flat out make them elves or something), all of the concerns I've mentioned are immeadiatly gone.

You bring up the Empire being supported by heavy cavalry, which the Romans didn't have; but I see no reason that the Romans wouldn't have adopted heavy cavalry if they'd still been around when stirrups were first introduced to Europe. The Romans did so like appropriating things for themselves. The gladius could be phased out for a longer blade, or for spears if they are drilled enough to not accidentally throw them instead of their pilums.

The problem is that most people have only 1 view of Roman soldiers; that of the legionaire with lora segmata, a scutum, a gladius, and a pilum. Or in other words; the guys Asterix an Obelix beat up. Outside of a handful of nerds; most people won't recognize say a 4th century western Roman soldier as specificly Roman. Hell, most people wouldn't even recognize auxilia or foederati as Roman despite Rome's heavy reliance on those troops.

Maintaining the legionaire aesthetic, while keeping it a mostly non-magical mortal faction I don't think works very well within warhammer.

Putting that legionaire aesthetic on a more magical faction is perfectly doable.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Looks like this thread has derailed a bit. And for once, sweet innocent NIGHTBRINGER was away on hiatus and cannot be legitimately blamed.

 

[J.Logan]

Looks like this thread has derailed a bit. And for once, sweet innocent NIGHTBRINGER was away on hiatus and cannot be legitimately blamed.

Slow news day

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Slow news day

I've been the cause of fair few number of thread derailments in my time, so I can't exactly start pointing the finger.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

 

[J.Logan]

Yah, I saw that. Nagash is come to be a bloomin' nuisance and try to kill the world.

Other things revealed is that Archaon gets a re-work, which good. Archaon is THE Chaos villain, the Thirteenth Everchosen; he needs to be something special, not just a run of the mill lord with good stats.

And End Times Scenarios... Now I can truly work to show how canon should have gone and avert the End Times. kick Nagash's boney arse to the curb and point sternly at Archaon and tell him NO!

 

[Just A Skink]

Nice to see Settra.

 

[- Q -]

Nice to see Settra.

By the look of it, he didn't fare to well. But he'll be back.

 

[J.Logan]

By the look of it, he didn't fare to well. But he'll be back.

Settra does not sell attacks of Nagash... Settra rules!

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Settra does not sell attacks of Nagash... Settra rules!

As much as I love Settra, 1 v 1, Nagash stomps him.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Well, this is concerning.

They're not going to try and kill off the three games and bring in an AoS Total War now, are they?

 

[J.Logan]

As much as I love Settra, 1 v 1, Nagash stomps him.

Egads, you mean to suggest that Settra is not the Chuck Norris of the Warhammer setting?

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Egads, you mean to suggest that Settra is not the Chuck Norris of the Warhammer setting?

Not when up against cheesy End Times Nagash at any rate

But then...

Nobody wants to keep the End Times canon except GW anyway

 

[J.Logan]

Well, this is concerning.

They're not going to try and kill off the three games and bring in an AoS Total War now, are they?

They said in the reveal that they still have plans for the game, this isn't the final DLC. Though I'll wager what DLC there is going forwards will be themed around the End Times, which DID have some cool new models.

Plus, WHERE IS THANQUOL!? WE NEED THE HORNED RAT'S GREATEST-FAVOURITEST, YES-YES! If Thanquol is not in THIS DLC, he BETTER be in the next, because the Skaven feel incomplete without our favourite greyseer. Need Thanquol, yes-yes.

Nobody wants to keep the End Times canon except GW anyway

I mean, aside from the models that came out for the End Times, some of which were instantly discontinued and still haven't made a reappearance in AoS... as a setting for a sandbox game like Total War, the End Times are a good setting. Vermintide is also a fun game, which is set in the End Times. So it's not like we couldn't have gotten good narratives from the apocalypse in motion.

The problem is and shall forever be the implementation in canon, and how even from the start it was worked out that every story would end with the antagonist winning. Usually through contrived means. And then the world was destroyed. Which was not a subversion of tropes that we particularly wanted. Especially not to be instantly insulted with that joke of a first edition of Age of Sigmar. I do not have a moustache, so I'd never get to reroll for having a nicer moustache than my opponent, etc.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

They said in the reveal that they still have plans for the game, this isn't the final DLC. Though I'll wager what DLC there is going forwards will be themed around the End Times, which DID have some cool new models.

Yeeeaaah... but a crap story that benefitted some factions (especially those that didn't need anymore benefitting... looking at you Warriors of Chaos) more than others

I mean, aside from the models that came out for the End Times, some of which were instantly discontinued and still haven't made a reappearance in AoS...

I'm pretty sure all the End Times models are still present in AoS:

1. We know Nagash is very much there, along with the Mortarchs and Spirit Hosts
2. The Putrid Blightkings and the Glottkin are both present among the Maggotkin of Nurgle, though for some reason the Blightkings are going to be replaced soon with new sculpts despite not being that old models
3. Khaine never got any specific models, as it revolved around existing Elf characters
4. The new Thanquol, Verminlords and Stormfiends are all currently available
5. The Khorne models released for Archaon (Wrathmongers and the new Bloodthirster/Skarbrand) are still very much available and out to collect fresh skulls

as a setting for a sandbox game like Total War, the End Times are a good setting. Vermintide is also a fun game, which is set in the End Times. So it's not like we couldn't have gotten good narratives from the apocalypse in motion.

So long as they keep the viability balance between factions acceptable (which is more than GW ever did for 8th Edition... especially when End Times heightened the clusterfuck).

 

[J.Logan]

I'm pretty sure all the End Times models are still present in AoS:

I swear that there was an undead unit that never made the transition despite having just been introduced in End Times, but now that I try to actually remember what it was, I'm drawing all the blanks. Brain like a sieve, me, there is nothing that I cannot learn and then forget

So long as they keep the viability balance between factions acceptable (which is more than GW ever did for 8th Edition... especially when End Times heightened the clusterfuck).

Despite the current attitude of people regarding Creative Assembly, I do have some faith that the balance won't get TOO borked. Power creep has long been a thing though, but the Empire has still been playable and viable, even if no longer the "easy starter faction" it used to be, same with the other factions, outside of some patches breaking the AI and needing fresh patches to fix THOSE issues... But time will tell. Sooner or later, time will tell.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

I swear that there was an undead unit that never made the transition despite having just been introduced in End Times, but now that I try to actually remember what it was, I'm drawing all the blanks. Brain like a sieve, me, there is nothing that I cannot learn and then forget

Now you mention it I do remember they released new Spirit Hosts and the Mortarchs when the Nagash book came out (and have updated my earlier post with those)... but they're all still available too.

Other than that, though, can't recall any undead units dropped when Fantasy was replaced with AoS.