8th Ed. Gosh, Cold One Riders...WTF?

[Sleboda]

Maybe this should be in the tactics forum, but I think my puzzlement is deep enough that I can't even think of coming up with actual tactics yet.

My problem is that I have a bunch of them and my gut tells me I should be able to find a way to use them, but then I look at their entry in the book and just can't seem to find a reason to even try. Is anyone else in this same boat?

Why no magic banner option? When I look at armies like Dark Elves where Magic Banners are seemingly handed out as diapers to each unit standard bearer when he is birthed, I can't get why our army is so limited. Fine, fine, fine...no magic banners on basic, cheap troops. Whatevs (it's not like VC skeletons can get them...oh wait). But seriously, no magic banner for a unit that looks like they are Temple Guard on steeds? At 30 (34) points each? Ouch!

Ok, though, fine. No magic banner.

What else do they offer? Losing PF and an Attack in the second rank on 11 point Saurus hurts, but it's nor crushing. Losing that plus 2 Attacks per Cold One sure does make it feel like I am spending a lot of points on Attacks I cannot use and not getting enough mass to make up for it.

Does this mean their only use is as very small flank disruptors? Five of them would be 150+ points. I think I'll take a Bastiladon over that, even though they do not fill the same role at all, really. You know, at M7 and with Stupidity, I'm not even sure they are a better choice than two units of 10 skinks with javelins or a small block of Saurus on foot.

I just really can't see a place for these - at all - in our army lists. Am I missing something vital?

 

[hdctambien]

I have no idea how to use them effectively. I've run a block of 10 + 2 Scar Vets (one as BSB) and before I too my turn they were 2 ScarVets and a Pack Leader. By my turn 2 it was just 2 ScarVets...

Maybe running 2 or 3 units (maybe 4?) of 5 (with musician?) could be good for flanking and target saturation. And they're the fastest unit in our book so maybe war machine hunting? (If you're taking 2 - 3 units of Cold Ones then you're probably not taking any Chameleons or Terradons...)

5 Cav can dish out 20 S4 attacks and 10 of those get PF. That's nothing to sneeze at.

I know the Cold One Cav is working well for the Dark Elfs ... and they have pathetic Elfs riding theirs! We should be able to do something with basically Temple Guard on ours!

 

[Sleboda]

I know the Cold One Cav is working well for the Dark Elfs ... and they have pathetic Elfs riding theirs! We should be able to do something with basically Temple Guard on ours!

- Re-rolls to hit
- Re-rolls to wound on S6 attacks
- Magic Banner
- Superior WS
- Superior LD value

Same point cost as our guys, but with lances included.

Plus, nearby Cauldron gives them Frenzy very easily to make up for the difference in number of Attacks.

Not hard to see why theirs work and ours do not.

 

[hdctambien]

Re-rolls to hit
- Re-rolls to wound on S6 attacks
- Magic Banner
- Superior WS
- Superior LD value

Same point cost as our guys, but with lances included.

Plus, nearby Cauldron gives them Frenzy very easily to make up for the difference in number of Attacks.

Man I hate cheaty Elfs.... remind why did the Old Ones keep them around?

 

[Sleboda]

Someone had to tend to their....oh, let's call them needs.


(Slaanesh had to start somewhere, I suppose.)

 

[The Hunted]

I think I might be one of the few who actually likes the Cold One Riders.

I use a 6-man (lizard?) group with a musician. The musician is solely there for swift reforms and 'winning by musician). No spears.

My regular opponents are Skaven, High Elves and Brettonia (small gaming group). And coming from a former Dwarf army; I am just a big big fan of their mobility.
Against the opponents above: S4 is enough for the T3 infantry, Skaven and Brets have poor infantry. HE have better, but even then I find them quite usefull. A big unit (25-30) of Spearmen/archers I will take on without a doubt, any cavalry I will dance around with untill I get a good position (skinks help here, HE have too few cheap support to really help).

Personally, I have trouble with enemy 5-man knights units running rampant through my many many skink units. It's very nice to have my own cavalry unit 'guarding' a whole flank or even battlefield. Just denying my opponent to move effectively is worth it.

Facing tougher opponents: only flanks are really worth trying on units. Note units; not monsters. Monsters should be dealt with by skinks, characters (CC/magic) and Bastiladon laser beams.


I like to put them on a flank, sometimes with a scar-vet BSB in there and move aggressively forward on my first turn. In the following turns, I am quite happy to draw fire and dance around the battlefield. Allowing my skinks to do their business untroubled.
My opponents are scared of a flank charge, because even though no magic banner and only S4..they have a lot of attacks!

Anyways, that's my point of view

The Hunted

 

[hdctambien]

I know the Cold One Cav is working well for the Dark Elfs ... and they have pathetic Elfs riding theirs! We should be able to do something with basically Temple Guard on ours!

- Re-rolls to hit
- Re-rolls to wound on S6 attacks
- Magic Banner
- Superior WS
- Superior LD value

Same point cost as our guys, but with lances included.

Plus, nearby Cauldron gives them Frenzy very easily to make up for the difference in number of Attacks.

Not hard to see why theirs work and ours do not.

After some time thinking about all this, I don't think the Dark Elf Cold Ones out match the Lizardmen Cold Ones as much as it looks from the surface.

Dark Elfs have better WS and reroll fails to hit, but Saurus have 2 attacks, so the Elfs will hit 89% with their 1 attacks (vs an opponent with a lesser WS), and Saurus will hit 50% of the time with their 2 attacks, giving them 1 hit on average. So Saurus will hit more often than Dark Elfs, even though they have rerolls. Plus, the Saurus have PF which have an upside of 2 more attacks! (I think this balances out the Dark Elf Murderous Prowess)

The Dark Elfs do have a better Strength on the charge, so that is a point in their favor. Plus they reroll 1's To Wound, which gives them 8% more wounds than Saurus would get even with teh same Strength (but like I said, I think this is balanced out by PF, and PF may even be slightly better)

I'm pretty sure Cold Blooded Ld 8 is better than Regular Ld 9.

When receiving hits, the Saurus will be hit 16% more than the Dark Elfs, but they will take 16% less wounds because of higher toughness, so that pretty much balances out (except against things with Str6+ where they are both wounded the same amount) Plus the Elfs have ASF, so they will get more of their attacks before they take casualties.

And then you get to magics. The Dark Elfs can take both a Magic Banner and their Champion can take a Magic Weapon.

Ultimately, I think our Cold Ones are closer to the Dark Elfs than meats the eyes. The real advantages the Dark Elf Cold Ones have over Lizardman ones are:

- Dark Elfs are better against high toughness/high armor save/high strength things
- Always Strike First
- Magic Manner/Magic Weapon

 

[Lizardmatt]

I've successfully run a unit of 5 with stand and musician as monster hunters. Nearly all monsters only hit them on 4+, 2+ armor is good, and with a standard, charge and musician, they've won combat more than once without even doing a wound.

Outside of monster hunting, they haven't done much for me.
To me, the role seems too specialized.

-Matt

 

[Pinktaco]

Would heavy armour with a halbard and magic banner been too much to ask for? That would've made them mounted templeguards instead of this odd mix of a regular saurus and guards, with no banner and an extremely expensive spear.

I want to use them but to what?

 

[Sunchax]

I use them as character buss, do not know if i would run thrm by themself.

 

[Lizardmatt]

Would heavy armour with a halbard and magic banner been too much to ask for? That would've made them mounted templeguards instead of this odd mix of a regular saurus and guards, with no banner and an extremely expensive spear.

I want to use them but to what?

That, is a rad idea. I like the idea of having mounted lizards not be your typical dude with pointy stick and shield.

-Matt

 

[Putzfrau]

Would heavy armour with a halbard and magic banner been too much to ask for? That would've made them mounted templeguards instead of this odd mix of a regular saurus and guards, with no banner and an extremely expensive spear.

I want to use them but to what?

i think if spears were included in the cost you'd see them a lot more.

or perhaps if they had some other options (great weapons, light armor, halberds, etc).


right now its kind of a "why do i need more strength 4 attacks" situation.

 

[chefsdad]

Think there's a place for them naked (with muso) if you take cowboys in a canon-dominated meta. Not bad at killing standard elves either (what is?).

Just a scar-vet/oldblood delivery system I'm afraid.

 

[Angaturama]

I often use them to attack an enemy unit by the sides. I had a unit of skinks which were being annyhalated by a unot of 60 clanrats the other day, and took in a unit of 20 cold one riders with an Old Blood on a cold one. I managed to wipe out the hole unit of clanrats with only 3 casualties, making me win the hole game itself. (just to say, Cold ones are really effective when attacking from the flank, esspecialy if they arent in a straight line but in a unit of 5 by 4.) Hope this helps!

 

[T_Saurus]

I often use them to attack an enemy unit by the sides. I had a unit of skinks which were being annyhalated by a unot of 60 clanrats the other day, and took in a unit of 20 cold one riders with an Old Blood on a cold one. I managed to wipe out the hole unit of clanrats with only 3 casualties, making me win the hole game itself. (just to say, Cold ones are really effective when attacking from the flank, esspecialy if they arent in a straight line but in a unit of 5 by 4.) Hope this helps!

Interesting...you say your unit that cost over 770 points defeated a unit that was only 240 points? Hmmmm interesting interesting...

Sarcasm aside any T3/S3 unit is a great place to put the Cold One Riders. Did you break the Clanrats in one round? Flanking them negates Strength in Numbers probably leaving him at Ld 7.

 

[Pinktaco]

Would heavy armour with a halbard and magic banner been too much to ask for? That would've made them mounted templeguards instead of this odd mix of a regular saurus and guards, with no banner and an extremely expensive spear.

I want to use them but to what?

i think if spears were included in the cost you'd see them a lot more.

or perhaps if they had some other options (great weapons, light armor, halberds, etc).


right now its kind of a "why do i need more strength 4 attacks" situation.

I agree.

I think what I suggested would've made for a quite good unit. Imagine 10 S5 attacks + 10 S4 attacks all with armour piercing. But sure say heavy armour + spear as standard for 32pts and the option go take halbards for an additional 2pts. This way you can either go 1+ armour save with spears or 2+ AS and halbards.

Alternatively give them the option to wield great weapons (this would be more in line with our cowboys). Maybe for 5pts/weapon? 2+ AS along with S6 would be awesome. Couple that with a scar vet with GW and we'd have quite a heavy hitting unit.

At any rate I think it's a shame we didn't get any proper options. The only thing we got was something others get for free but we have to pay a lot for.

 

[Eladimir]

The big problem I find is the low init. If you only have 5 and lose any before you swing that combat punch goes way down.

 

[ChandlerGriz]

The past few games I have ran a unit of 6 with full command and spears and I have been very happy with it.

They handled taking out a unit of 4 Beasts of Nurgle and a unit of 10 Empire Knights with a Warrior Priest all on their own. and it is a GREAT unit to flank charge with. Im becoming a big fan of the PF and the number of attacks the unit pumps out before PF and half are S5 on the charge is enough to overwhelm most things. I wouldn't run them face first into ranked units due to steadfast and rank bonuses but there are more than enough things on the board they excel at removing. Im trying to work in a SECOND unit of 6!

 

[T_Saurus]

The past few games I have ran a unit of 6 with full command and spears and I have been very happy with it.

They handled taking out a unit of 4 Beasts of Nurgle and a unit of 10 Empire Knights with a Warrior Priest all on their own. and it is a GREAT unit to flank charge with. Im becoming a big fan of the PF and the number of attacks the unit pumps out before PF and half are S5 on the charge is enough to overwhelm most things. I wouldn't run them face first into ranked units due to steadfast and rank bonuses but there are more than enough things on the board they excel at removing. Im trying to work in a SECOND unit of 6!

Anecdotal Evidence is great but crunching the numbers against the Beasts of Nurgle you should not have won that even assuming you got the charge for +1 str. So there is definitely something else in the equation you aren't mentioning, I assume a solid buffing phase or you flanked them.

Against the Knights (Inner Circle?) if you got the charge head on against the Empire Knights that should at best be a close fight and at worse you should be ground down. So once again I feel like there is something else not included in the anecdote.

I don't mean to sound negative but I feel like you are giving a skewed perspective.

 

[Sleboda]

You beat me to it!

If my very hastily tossed together math is even close, the charge of the Cold Ones should have maybe killed one Beast and the Beasts (who all get to fight since they are the same Initiative as the mighty elite Cold One Riders) should have killed 3 Cold Ones in return. Next round it's 3 Beasts vs. 3 COR (at S4 now) and the fight is over.

Just like T_Saurus, I am not trying to be negative, but if we're looking for uses for the Cold One Riders, it's best not to chase false hopes.