TOW Giant Blowpipes, Sun Standard of Chotec + Fire and Flee

[Seb]

Greetings!

First off, let me share my frustration over the absolute ineptitude of the rule writers for OW (and generally before this albeit not as bad). It is literally their job, yet they all seem to sit and twiddle their thumbs, printing "rules" as "fire and forget" and seemingly not caring one single bit for the thousands of people frustrated by their lack of work integrity. So many disputes could have easily been pre-emptively avoided if they just bothered to put down a couple more neurons in their wording, definitions and proper specifications.

Now, to the issue(s)!

1) Giant Blowpipes.

My friends try to argue (and I feel like trying to "nerf" me in more than one instance) that I only get 2d6 attacks from the Stegadon in total.

I've told them that the consensus all the way up until TOW has been 4d6.
I've told them that it's the only logical thing (each blowpipe is a massive "double barrelled" dual-blowpipe(s) consisting of 2 big blowpipes). Each d6 represents each of the "barrels". "2d6" is for the weapon profile and it has 2 of them. I'm frustrated because I don't know what else to say, it's right there in plain sight, but GW is being arbitrarily vague or contentiously ambiguous as always in their wording/listing.

How do I convince them when they seem confirmation biased? Am I wrong and have been dissonant/projecting the entire time (regardless, I'd then consider it something to be blamed on GW, and I'd still think 4d6 the only logical outcome, however I'd acquiesce to 2d6 if there was any proof of it)?

2) Fire and Flee.

My friend chose "fire and flee" when I charged his DE riders with my Cold Ones with a Sun Standard of Chotec.
I SPECIFICALLY asked him in advance if he considered "fire and flee" a "stand and shoot" reaction and he said yes.
When I then did the charged he took a 180 and started rolling for missile fire. I said the banner prevents a "stand and shoot" reaction (it literally blinds them and that is the whole point of the banner - also it gives -1 to hit on them in the shooting phase, as they obviously prepare against missile fire).
Not only that, but as he now magically got to be immune to being blinded, and it was not the shooting phase, he also got to roll without the -1 to hit.

Can someone explain to me how this makes any sense at all?
It does not to me, and it is very frustrating because I am giving them the benefit of a doubt that they're not doing this only to "prove me wrong" instead of genuinely using rationality.
Sometimes it devolves into a fishing for RAW in a woefully inadequate source material...

Also, you could argue "but in a redirected charge, you could also shoot at them" yeah except you can't, because the only valid outcomes are stated to be "hold" or "flee".

So the only case I'd not benefit from -1 to hit on them, would be this VERY specific case where he "did not get blinded" because their commander said "guys we're running a bit backwards after shooting" and therefore suddenly become immune to the effect.

Please help me find RAW, if any exist, because logics, ration, meta and visual representations are not enough.

I quite frankly am not interested in playing more if I meet this level of resistance all the time, I feel spent.
I love my friends, but yeah that's it basically.

Thanks in advance

 

[discomute]

Greetings!

First off, let me share my frustration over the absolute ineptitude of the rule writers for OW (and generally before this albeit not as bad). It is literally their job, yet they all seem to sit and twiddle their thumbs, printing "rules" as "fire and forget" and seemingly not caring one single bit for the thousands of people frustrated by their lack of work integrity. So many disputes could have easily been pre-emptively avoided if they just bothered to put down a couple more neurons in their wording, definitions and proper specifications.

Now, to the issue(s)!

1) Giant Blowpipes.

My friends try to argue (and I feel like trying to "nerf" me in more than one instance) that I only get 2d6 attacks from the Stegadon in total.

I've told them that the consensus all the way up until TOW has been 4d6.
I've told them that it's the only logical thing (each blowpipe is a massive "double barrelled" dual-blowpipe(s) consisting of 2 big blowpipes). Each d6 represents each of the "barrels". "2d6" is for the weapon profile and it has 2 of them. I'm frustrated because I don't know what else to say, it's right there in plain sight, but GW is being arbitrarily vague or contentiously ambiguous as always in their wording/listing.

How do I convince them when they seem confirmation biased? Am I wrong and have been dissonant/projecting the entire time (regardless, I'd then consider it something to be blamed on GW, and I'd still think 4d6 the only logical outcome, however I'd acquiesce to 2d6 if there was any proof of it)?

2) Fire and Flee.

My friend chose "fire and flee" when I charged his DE riders with my Cold Ones with a Sun Standard of Chotec.
I SPECIFICALLY asked him in advance if he considered "fire and flee" a "stand and shoot" reaction and he said yes.
When I then did the charged he took a 180 and started rolling for missile fire. I said the banner prevents a "stand and shoot" reaction (it literally blinds them and that is the whole point of the banner - also it gives -1 to hit on them in the shooting phase, as they obviously prepare against missile fire).
Not only that, but as he now magically got to be immune to being blinded, and it was not the shooting phase, he also got to roll without the -1 to hit.

Can someone explain to me how this makes any sense at all?
It does not to me, and it is very frustrating because I am giving them the benefit of a doubt that they're not doing this only to "prove me wrong" instead of genuinely using rationality.
Sometimes it devolves into a fishing for RAW in a woefully inadequate source material...

Also, you could argue "but in a redirected charge, you could also shoot at them" yeah except you can't, because the only valid outcomes are stated to be "hold" or "flee".

So the only case I'd not benefit from -1 to hit on them, would be this VERY specific case where he "did not get blinded" because their commander said "guys we're running a bit backwards after shooting" and therefore suddenly become immune to the effect.

Please help me find RAW, if any exist, because logics, ration, meta and visual representations are not enough.

I quite frankly am not interested in playing more if I meet this level of resistance all the time, I feel spent.
I love my friends, but yeah that's it basically.

Thanks in advance

1) the giant blowpipes shoot once. On multiple shots it is 2d6. Sorry no logical representations or past rulesets don't really matter. It says "multiple shots (2d6)" so that's how it works, same as when regular blowpipes say "multiple shots (2)".

2) fire & flee is not allowed. The rule for fire & flee says specifically they "stand and shoot" first before turning and fleeing. Page 169

Edit I mean technically I guess they can opt to fire and flee, skip stand and shoot, then flee a lower amount. Can't see any reason why they'd want to though.

 

[Seb]

1) Thank you, and no, I mean, they mean the Stegadon's crew will fire 2d6 in total, not per blowpipe (I tried to edit in more links+photos for clarification but it won't let me)
I mean the same as you (?) that it's 2d6 per Giant blowpipe (as small blowpipes are [may be] 2 per pipe), as it has been since 5th ed.

Like, it makes no sense that 2 of the 4 physical blowpipes fires no shots at all, despite using all of them (again, 1d6 per pipe). Is it meta that they forget to put poison darts into them?

But they mean it's 2d6 for the entire Stegadon, because this time it says "blowpipeS" in the weapon profile, despite it describing the same weapon as always (of which there are 2 mounted, as seen in all the previous rulebooks, who specifically says this)

Also, if they did change the rules, why did they not change the model? 1 of the Giant Blowpipes has no role and makes no sense if it's 2d6

2) Thank you, although that's what I said too, but they said it's an "own" charge reaction. Therefore making my banner invalid because it is "fire and flee" charge reaction and not "stand and shoot".
Which still doesn't work because they still stand and shoot, but they found a "loophole" (or thought so) and exploited it...

Another frustrating thing is that this banner is new to TOW (afaik) and still GW managed to eff it up despite its simplicity



Sorry if I'm being rigid, I generally have difficulties with accepting what I consider logical flaws, but I will admit fault if I think I was wrong... I just hope they release more errata soon... or fix stuff like this
(it's a drop in the ocean but these two were specific to my faction)

 

[Seb]

Sorry for "spam" but it won't let me edit, here is the edited post but redacted for brevity:


1) Giant Blowpipes.

Lizardmen 9th Ed. v.1.3

(...)

2) Fire and Flee.

Warhammerfantasy wiki

(...)

Sun Standard of Chotec.

Rationality* (not "ration")

 

[discomute]

1) Thank you, and no, I mean, they mean the Stegadon's crew will fire 2d6 in total, not per blowpipe (I tried to edit in more links+photos for clarification but it won't let me)
I mean the same as you (?) that it's 2d6 per Giant blowpipe (as small blowpipes are [may be] 2 per pipe), as it has been since 5th ed.

Like, it makes no sense that 2 of the 4 physical blowpipes fires no shots at all, despite using all of them (again, 1d6 per pipe). Is it meta that they forget to put poison darts into them?

But they mean it's 2d6 for the entire Stegadon, because this time it says "blowpipeS" in the weapon profile, despite it describing the same weapon as always (of which there are 2 mounted, as seen in all the previous rulebooks, who specifically says this)

Also, if they did change the rules, why did they not change the model? 1 of the Giant Blowpipes has no role and makes no sense if it's 2d6

2) Thank you, although that's what I said too, but they said it's an "own" charge reaction. Therefore making my banner invalid because it is "fire and flee" charge reaction and not "stand and shoot".
Which still doesn't work because they still stand and shoot, but they found a "loophole" (or thought so) and exploited it...

Another frustrating thing is that this banner is new to TOW (afaik) and still GW managed to eff it up despite its simplicity



Sorry if I'm being rigid, I generally have difficulties with accepting what I consider logical flaws, but I will admit fault if I think I was wrong... I just hope they release more errata soon... or fix stuff like this
(it's a drop in the ocean but these two were specific to my faction)

I agree that TOW is riddled with issues.

1) there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever. You buy "giant blowpipes" this is plural. The weapon that gives 2d6 is "giant blowpipes" which is pural. I'm sorry I think you are being blinded by previous editions here.

2) wow. Just wow. I understand now. Your friend needs to be sacrificed to Sotek I swear. That is a horrendous interpretation of the rules, very "beardy" and you absolutely have the right to be angry. I mean what can I say? They have a point as to RAW. But it's very clear to anyone that they are incorrect for RAI. At least in my opinion. I'll also say I just bounced it off the chat for old world Australia to see if my greenscales were making me biased and so far 3 opinions have come back and they all strongly agree with us.

 

[discomute]

Sorry for "spam" but it won't let me edit, here is the edited post but redacted for brevity:


1) Giant Blowpipes.

Lizardmen 9th Ed. v.1.3

(...)

2) Fire and Flee.

Warhammerfantasy wiki

(...)

Sun Standard of Chotec.

Rationality* (not "ration")

I think I missed this when responding. I have no idea where you are getting that rule about Giant Blowpipes. I just went onto the TOWs website and redownloaded the lizardmen rule book. It doesn't have that "up to two Skink crew may each" line. Where did you get this from? Is this for the Old World?

PS. If we are talking old world, you get 2d6 giant blow pipes in total, but the other 4 skinks can throw their poisoned javelins.

 

[Kalisto]

Well in The Old World is just 2d6 (maybe in other editions was 4d6 but i don't know ..)
(your picture had 9th edition)

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

For the blowpipes, it is definitely only 2d6 total. You would replace the Giant Bow with a "Pair of Giant Blow Pipes" or "Two Giant Blowpipes" to get to 4d6. And unfortunately we don't.

As for the Sun Standard one, remind your friend he is playing against an army with a 35% win rate. Give it the benefit of the doubt.