AoS General's Handbook MKII Early Look!

[Qupakoco]

Small derail here;

Have they updated any of the battletomes yet? I'm wondering if I wait until after the next set of updates if I'll lose any content that was in an older tome.

 

[Canas]

My thoughts they saw how KOW was playing with a couple of spells and thought they would try it, I may be clutching at straws with that theory.

Meh, I don't know KOW, but I'd assume KOW has more going for it than just 2 base spells & 1 special spell that frequently is a more powerfull version of 1 of the two basespells for each wizard. I get that they'd want to simplify the magic system of fantasy given that it seems quite complex. But they did rather overdo it. Especially in combination with the rule of one magic becomes extremely limited.

Ah well, maybe it'l be improved ^^

edit.. god I'm making an asthonishing amount of typping errors for some reason since I started posting here...

 

[Bowser]

No updates to the tomes as of yet.

 

[Drofnum]

@Drofnum I'd freaking hope they don't prize their books based on length... god forbid they discover that they can make the typsetting a tad larger and charge more in that case... I'd assume it's based on content & adding 1 paragraph should not have a significant influence on prize.

Just go to your local shop or online. An easy example is the Destruction book($16.50) compared to the Order book($33). Literally the only difference is the size. And if you go look through the three books i listed you will see that at minimum adding those things to the GHB would be 3 pages per faction, there are a ton of factions right now but even if you just take the 4 chaos, 4 big order factions, the 3 main destruction and 3 main death factions you're looking at 42 more pages. I get that you want them all in easy to access places but with the way they are going its not really feasible and they arent going to change what they are doing when they just recently started doing this.

 

[Drofnum]

Small derail here;

Have they updated any of the battletomes yet? I'm wondering if I wait until after the next set of updates if I'll lose any content that was in an older tome.

Stormcast is supposedly going to be pre-order this weekend.

 

[Canas]

Just go to your local shop or online. An easy example is the Destruction book($16.50) compared to the Order book($33). Literally the only difference is the size. And if you go look through the three books i listed you will see that at minimum adding those things to the GHB would be 3 pages per faction, there are a ton of factions right now but even if you just take the 4 chaos, 4 big order factions, the 3 main destruction and 3 main death factions you're looking at 42 more pages. I get that you want them all in easy to access places but with the way they are going its not really feasible and they arent going to change what they are doing when they just recently started doing this.

well that's slightly stupid......

 

[Seraphage]

Meh, I don't know KOW, but I'd assume KOW has more going for it than just 2 base spells & 1 special spell that frequently is a more powerfull version of 1 of the two basespells for each wizard. I get that they'd want to simplify the magic system of fantasy given that it seems quite complex. But they did rather overdo it. Especially in combination with the rule of one magic becomes extremely limited.

Ah well, maybe it'l be improved ^^

edit.. god I'm making an asthonishing amount of typping errors for some reason since I started posting here...

No change is smooth because it's only theory until it is actually tested. I believe they wanted to discard the stupidity of the precious version - have only seen videos of it and still seems silly, don't wanna use strong langue ! -
"I cast the Purple Sun or whatever the name. Wops I rolled good enough to wipe most of your army. Too bad we wasted time gathering, list building and placing units. Good game !"

My hopes are that they will improve it over time. Let's not forget that they 're only humans after all !

 

[MerciaBear]

What AoS has done is massively reduce barriers to entry. If you have a very complex game system it rewards those who have an amazing memory, a brilliant mind for obtuse synergies and enough of a lack of social skills to not care who they kerbstomp (ok that last one was for fun!)

In AoS its quite easy for a new player, like me, to download all the warscrolls, read up on them and grasp the simple game concepts. Giving me a much better chance against proto genius neckbeard at the local shop.

The structure of the matched play scenarios reinforces this by massively weighting victory conditions in favour of movement and tactical withdrawal rather than WRECKING FACE.

In short, the more complexity you add, the less efficient the above characteristics become.

I think a lot of AoS hate comes from people who confuse complexity with tactical depth. The two things arent even meaningfully related in a lot of cases. Chess is of course the greatest example of this.

Slight rant over, apologies!

 

[Canas]

@Seraphage yea heard ome stories about that too. And obviously that's problematic. Though we're now at the opposite end with wizards barely putting a dent in anything on their own. let's just hope they find a better spot somewhere in between.

@MerciaBear yes, AoS is simple and elegant and that makes it wonderfull. Especially to hook new players. However, the magic & ability system currently seem to be a bit too simple. There's little to no direct interaction between players while using them (no "I cast X to counter the Y you just cast"). And especially magic is currently limited in what it can be used for due to the lack of spells available to wizards in general.

Now magic doesn't need to be made complex, but with 3 spells per wizar the magic system is fairly shallow. Especially since a lot of spells fullfill similar niches in similar ways. There's plenty that can be done without being increadibly complex or requiring players to memorise arcane rules (hehe arcane rules for a magic system....) It'd be wonderfull to see effects that last more than 1 turn, or to be able to create hazards and shape the battlefield.

Also, chess relies depressingly much on memorisation, try becoming a grandmaster a great deal consist of memorising configurations and how to win from that configuration

 

[Bowser]

Also, chess relies depressingly much on memorisation, try becoming a grandmaster a great deal consist of memorising configurations and how to win from that configuration

True, but chess is only a 2 page rule book, and if you want to win tournaments in AoS you need to memorize the enemy warscrolls as much as your own!

 

[Tokek]

I think a lot of AoS hate comes from people who confuse complexity with tactical depth. The two things arent even meaningfully related in a lot of cases. Chess is of course the greatest example of this.

The challenge in any truly great game comes from matching wits with your opponent, the rules need only be sufficiently complex for you and your opponent to tactically test one another. Any further complexity detracts from the contest.

Once rules complexity is greater than needed for the expression of tactical ability the game will become more about the rules than about tactics. Ultimately this leads to the sorts of rules-lawyering nonsense that occurs in competitive 40K for example, that is a very different thing to tactical depth.

 

[Tokek]

True, but chess is only a 2 page rule book, and if you want to win tournaments in AoS you need to memorize the enemy warscrolls as much as your own!

The whole concept of "hidden rules" is weird in a game where otherwise there is no hidden information. I honestly do not know why AOS tournaments do not just require you to hand copies of your warscrolls along with your list to your opponent.

The idea that you have to memorize *anything* beyond the simple basic rules is harmful to growing the player-base. It also indirectly encourages some of the less ethical behavior we sometimes see in tournament gaming - such as being less than entirely truthful on the basis that if your opponent does not catch you out in your "mistake" you can gain an advantage through their lack of encyclopedic knowledge (or, just as likely, an unwillingness to accuse someone of cheating).

 

[Bowser]

I think most tournaments have to have the list submitted, and most players can have a look at their opponents lists before the match starts. And you can look up what the opponents unit does in the app, in fact I normally put them in my battle for quick reference. You don't need to take first on the tournaments to have a good time, just my comparison to a chess grand master.

 

[Tokek]

I think most tournaments have to have the list submitted, and most players can have a look at their opponents lists before the match starts. And you can look up what the opponents unit does in the app, in fact I normally put them in my battle for quick reference. You don't need to take first on the tournaments to have a good time, just my comparison to a chess grand master.

My point is that if you need to memorize lots of rules in order to have a chance to win then it is at least as much a memory game as it is a tactical game. It is perfectly possible to play tabletop games with your cards (literally or metaphorically) face up on the table; I wonder why competitive AOS has not adopted this approach given that the rules are free so there would be no real cost to the players. If you want the game to be a tactical contest then eliminating extraneous factors will enhance the tactical element of the game.

My personal observation is that some players take advantage of the hidden complex rules in a form of call-my-bluff where they can gain an advantage but will claim innocent error (and hence suffer no penalty) in instances where their bluff is called. Even among competitive players that enjoy mind-games this is considered controversial behavior[1] but it is essentially impossible to eradicate so long as rules are not required to be visible whilst in play.

I will admit I might have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about this right now - it is the reason why I am on an indefinite leave of absence from competitive 40K. I rather doubt if I am the only player who finds this increasingly common towards the top tables and for whom it leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth.

[1] e.g. a well known 40K player winning a major tournament by claiming their warlord had a 3+ save when they roll a 3 - when in fact they have a 4+ save.

 

[Drofnum]

How are the rules hidden or not available when they are an app click away? Its super super easy to check what an opponent is claiming with the app. I personally do have my warscrolls printed on a sheet of cardstock cause i prefer that to the app, but I always pull up the opponents army when we start a game so I can see what their units do and to make sure things are honest if i dont really know the person i'm playing.

I think this is also a point for AoS as the rules are far less complex than 40k and thus less prone to this sort of behavior.

 

[Bowser]

A lot of people do prefer to bring vards or binders with them, I prefer to memorize in order to keep the game moving, but if an opponent is unsure of the rules I will be the first to stop to help them look it up. I realize that there are some people who would try to take advantage of new people, but that happens in every game, but the app is available for anyone. There's nothing hidden in AOS. If I don’t know what a batallion does the opponents will be sure to show you their book, card, or the app. Never been a problem in the tournaments around here, as the tournament organizers have access to everything and will help to moderate if needed.

 

[KingCheops]

Complexity in rules is a joke. 8th had lots of spells but unless someone was good enough to know how to trickle cast the entirety of spellcasting was "I throw six dice, hope for a irresistible and hope it does more to you than me." No interaction, no depth. Utter bullshit. Believe me when I say that AoS is an improvement.

 

[Tokek]

How are the rules hidden or not available when they are an app click away? Its super super easy to check what an opponent is claiming with the app. I personally do have my warscrolls printed on a sheet of cardstock cause i prefer that to the app, but I always pull up the opponents army when we start a game so I can see what their units do and to make sure things are honest if i dont really know the person i'm playing.

I think this is also a point for AoS as the rules are far less complex than 40k and thus less prone to this sort of behavior.

As more of the special rules that swing a game (spells, batallions) are in books that are not in the app the visibility of the game will reduce, it is up to players to be open with that information. I am reasonably optimistic that the different culture of AOS can be retained even as organised events become almost entirely matched play and competitive players come across from other games.

 

[Drofnum]

I suppose that is true to an extent. I never really played 40k but in AoS I've never had a problem with my opponent trying to hide anything to gain an advantage. I also dont play competetively at this point so that could be a part of it too. Hopefully that doesnt change!

 

[pendrake]

Magic.

I wish they would come up with magic rules and spells that had a visual component.

Examples:
I'd like to be able to zap foes and turn them into sheep, or tree stumps, or newts, or rock pillars—something harmless. But something that results in replacing one model with another.

I'd like for there to be terrain-based summoning spells that mark the tabletop battlefield for the rest of the game. Rain of Boulders, Create Crevasse, Summon Wall, Geyser of Flame, Pit of Tar, Conjure Whirlwind, Pool of Mud....

To expand and expound on this further...

To do magic from the "Visual School of Magic" the casting mage would need to have the appropriate models for what he was doing.

Turning the enemy into Boulders would require a selection of Boulders mounted to figure bases. Turning a giant into a boulder would need a 50x50 base with a nice Menhir mounted to it...to put in place of the giant.

Walls of fire, or ice, or force could be done with translucent materials. Having a wall of fire that could move is a fun thought. A giant fireball that rolls around, as commanded by its caster, roasting things in its path is another thought. Same idea but with a tremendous boulder (a Titan's bowling ball) crushing things in its path would be a similar idea.

A 'Teleport Enemy' spell could be fun (send them to the opposite corner or the middle of a lake). Or a Vanish spell: enemy model disappears (which is really what all the direct damage spells have always done. Mage says, "Zoppety Boppety!", dice roll, then one or more models are removed.)

There could also be Summon Monsters or Conjure Elementals (which could be part of offsetting Summoning Armies.)

I would like to think of more ideas. So far, most of what I have is Summon or Conjure new things to the table.