8th Ed. Frenzied Cold One Riders!

[novatomato]

If you lose 1 model in a 10man unit, you are only 1 rank anyway. It ain't worth **** to have 1 extra rank of 30pt models.

I usually throw in a couple extra bodies beyond the one rank, yes it is expensive, but it has worked for me. When they get in combat, it is a combat I am 100% committed to winning. I usually have a 36 (6 by 6) strong warrior block in the front and a slann augmenting my units or hexing the opponents. I tended to, on average, mince through over 20 models a turn loosing maybe a rank of saurus if they were lucky so on anything other than absolutely massive blocks or blocks of really nasty infantry (ie old Khorne GW Marauder hordes, khorne halberd warriors, big units of Sword Masters or White Lions) I would be coming out as the clear winner, and those really nasty blocks were probably neutered and would be smushed in the next round.).
I haven't had time with the new book to see how my old lists would pan out points wise, but if spears are a free upgrade on warriors, and CoC got cheaper (as was mentioned above the command options got a big points reduction) I'm looking at already having a good 75+ points to play with.

Is it an optimal set up, probably not. Does it work, it worked wonders for me before so I have no reason to believe it won't again. It comes down to playstyle and list construction, don't write off anything in any book (except maybe the poor Troglodon, but I will try to find a way for this beautiful creature) as they can all be made to be useful and effective.

 

[Drmooreflava]

Imho its not that a knight bus cannot work...It can, but a frenzied unit requires more babysitting, when that 500point unit reaches the end of the battle and have been led by the nose by 50p chaff units like eagles or chaos pups etc then you start thinking maybe I could have played something that could have supported my other troops better.

And yes you can prevent the unwanted charge, just park a swarm, unit of terradons etc in front of them to prevent legal charge targets, but once again too much babysitting.

Imho at least Rippers have fly rule and more is agile thus you fly them out, face away from all enemies and round after get behind his lines and position to get to your target. This can be done with CoC too, but ofc flyers are better at the flanking. Also I will play a unit of 3 and it is way cheaper.

Other thing... one lore of metal spell could leave you very unhappy!

I will play them but probs just as a 5 vanilla unit...cheap and nasty

^this

First, Frenzy is not a huge liability at Ld8 cold-blooded, especially if the BSB is in the unit.

Second, I have used Cold One Cavalry effectively under the old book rules, and they have only gotten better and cheaper (not only -1 point per model with spears, but -20 points for full command). Are they a perfect unit? Absolutely not. But they can be quite effective, especially with character support. I have not yet tried the Skevenpelt Banner, but I definitely will.

Actually, it is a HUGE liability when you HAVE to overrun. If you don't understand the way that chaff units lead frenzied units out of the battle, go watch youtube bat reps for their educational value.

 

[Drmooreflava]

It's also something to point out that this isn't a new Meta Build, just a "Hey this would be funny" build.

Just 'cuz it isn't "the-best-of-the-best" doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun to play.

Heck, that unit would be fun to play even without the frenzy banner, just have a tooled up BSB. I'd want two Oldbloods, one a total tank, and the other with the Blade of Realities. Back them up with two level 2 Beasts Skink priests, and then the BSB and hopefully one more Scar Vet Cowboy. In Core, go with two meaty units of skrox. And back everything up with a Troglodon! Might be a case where the roar is actually useful, since all those kroxigors and saurus characters would get some extra attacks. Would be devastating.

Yes, I agree, w/o the frenzy banner, this unit has much more potential and a much less obvious weakness.

 

[n810]

IRC coldblood re-rolable LD8 has around a 98% chance of passing IE restraining frenzy.

 

[Caneghem]

IRC coldblood re-rolable LD8 has around a 98% chance of passing IE restraining frenzy.

I think the main disadvantage of frenzy is the forced pursuit/overrun.. and the other disadvantage being that your scar vet BSB becomes a bit more squishy, since he can't take any magic items.

 

[n810]

hmmm... 5+SS & LT armor & Shield & 2+ for cold one...

Yep thats a 1+ armor save for just mundane gear.

 

[Caneghem]

hmmm... 5+SS & LT armor & Shield & 2+ for cold one...

Yep thats a 1+ armor save for just mundane gear.

Maybe I should have said, "relatively squishy". At minimum each of your characters will have 1+ armor, but I'd probably slap the 4+ ward armor and a great weapon on the BSB. He'll be priority number one for enemy sniping, because if he falls you can no longer reroll your stupidity, and your stubborn (assuming someone has the crown) won't be as effective without rerolling break tests.

 

[n810]

a straight up LD8 colblooded roll has like a 88% chance of passing.

 

[Caneghem]

a straight up LD8 colblooded roll has like a 88% chance of passing.

Right, but if that test is a break test on a unit with a bunch of characters... that's a bit risky!

 

[Drmooreflava]

a straight up LD8 colblooded roll has like a 88% chance of passing.

With predatory fighter and frenzy and you win combat... you have no choice... There is no leadership test. You chase them or overrun... Any player worth his merit knows how to get them out of position and take them out of the battle or eliminate them with multicharges once they overrun/pursue out of position. The question isn't leadership... It is the areas where you don't even get to roll and your opponent dictates what will happen with the way he positions his units.

 

[The Hunted]

a straight up LD8 colblooded roll has like a 88% chance of passing.

With predatory fighter and frenzy and you win combat... you have no choice... There is no leadership test. You chase them or overrun... Any player worth his merit knows how to get them out of position and take them out of the battle or eliminate them with multicharges once they overrun/pursue out of position. The question isn't leadership... It is the areas where you don't even get to roll and your opponent dictates what will happen with the way he positions his units.

The point here was a stubborn break test, with help from the crown of command. And a dead BSB.
Not a test to restrain from pursuit.

The Hunted

 

[Blackthorne]

I'd just like to point out that having a cold one unit with an extra rank you are far more likely to be able to break steadfast on a unit with a charge into the flank. This is something I used to do quite regularly with the old lizard book. Being able to break and run down a big block has always been preferable to me than slowly grinding the result out, especially as I never played the seemingly ubiquitous Life Slaan, preferring shadows, light death or even heavens to life.

It is going to be a "sub-optimal" army set up, but when it worked it was absolutely devastating and I was able to pull it off more often than not. Now that they cheaper I am happily going to continue to use them in that way.

You don't negate steadfast with a flanking unit. Even if the flanking unit has two ranks and you disrupt the opponent, that doesn't break steadfast. You can negate their rank bonus for calculating combat res, but they keep steadfast if they have it.

 

[The Hunted]

I'd just like to point out that having a cold one unit with an extra rank you are far more likely to be able to break steadfast on a unit with a charge into the flank. This is something I used to do quite regularly with the old lizard book. Being able to break and run down a big block has always been preferable to me than slowly grinding the result out, especially as I never played the seemingly ubiquitous Life Slaan, preferring shadows, light death or even heavens to life.

It is going to be a "sub-optimal" army set up, but when it worked it was absolutely devastating and I was able to pull it off more often than not. Now that they cheaper I am happily going to continue to use them in that way.

You don't negate steadfast with a flanking unit. Even if the flanking unit has two ranks and you disrupt the opponent, that doesn't break steadfast. You can negate their rank bonus for calculating combat res, but they keep steadfast if they have it.

A very valid point indeed. A unit of SCOR will have a very hard time negating steadfast. They have to kill loads of models. That being said, this was also the point of the unit! But still, killing really big units in ranked/bus formation...hard.

Now novatomato did say something about that earlier:

If you lose 1 model in a 10man unit, you are only 1 rank anyway. It ain't worth **** to have 1 extra rank of 30pt models.

I usually throw in a couple extra bodies beyond the one rank, yes it is expensive, but it has worked for me. When they get in combat, it is a combat I am 100% committed to winning. I usually have a 36 (6 by 6) strong warrior block in the front and a slann augmenting my units or hexing the opponents. I tended to, on average, mince through over 20 models a turn loosing maybe a rank of saurus if they were lucky so on anything other than absolutely massive blocks or blocks of really nasty infantry (ie old Khorne GW Marauder hordes, khorne halberd warriors, big units of Sword Masters or White Lions) I would be coming out as the clear winner, and those really nasty blocks were probably neutered and would be smushed in the next round.).
I haven't had time with the new book to see how my old lists would pan out points wise, but if spears are a free upgrade on warriors, and CoC got cheaper (as was mentioned above the command options got a big points reduction) I'm looking at already having a good 75+ points to play with.

Is it an optimal set up, probably not. Does it work, it worked wonders for me before so I have no reason to believe it won't again. It comes down to playstyle and list construction, don't write off anything in any book (except maybe the poor Troglodon, but I will try to find a way for this beautiful creature) as they can all be made to be useful and effective.

He also has a pretty well sized infantry unit to the front of the unit. Which means that if he kills 20 models, the enemy has likely less ranks than your saurus do->no steadfast!
Even killing 15 a turn (Big unit of CoC only), still means the enemy has to have a load of models to hold onto their steadfast. Next turn, more mincing ensues, removing steadfast forgood.

Also, mind the last part of novatomato's post. Important part!

The Hunted

 

[Caneghem]

I'd probably try to get 2 OB, 3 SV, and a level 2 Beast Priest. The idea would be to make the cav unit pretty large, adding 15 models would give you four total ranks. Also, on the charge you're hitting with all characters, so the enemy can't attack rank and file to get easier kills. It also gives you 22 attacks from characters minimum, which can also benefit from PF. I think the Troglodon might be a decent choice for a giant cav bus list, because there will be that one turn where you run into the enemy's big block, and you want to chew up enough of the unit to remove enough ranks so that your 4 rank cav unit can deprive them of steadfast, and you can just run down the unit. You'd want to be careful about how you shuffle around your characters, minimizing attacks against the least defended members of the unit. Core, you'd just go all skink skirmishers to help win the maneuvering phase. Finish up the list with a substantial air force, with rippers and terradons to clear up enemy chaff and keep your cav bus in position. Don't forget a good number of chameleon skinks to take down warmachines ASAP. If you are facing cannons, be sure to deploy wide, to prevent cannons from racking up too many kills on your cav early in the game. It is a hilarious list that I think I will try to throw together real quick.

 

[The Hunted]

I'd probably try to get 2 OB, 3 SV, and a level 2 Beast Priest. The idea would be to make the cav unit pretty large, adding 15 models would give you four total ranks. Also, on the charge you're hitting with all characters, so the enemy can't attack rank and file to get easier kills. It also gives you 22 attacks from characters minimum, which can also benefit from PF. I think the Troglodon might be a decent choice for a giant cav bus list, because there will be that one turn where you run into the enemy's big block, and you want to chew up enough of the unit to remove enough ranks so that your 4 rank cav unit can deprive them of steadfast, and you can just run down the unit. You'd want to be careful about how you shuffle around your characters, minimizing attacks against the least defended members of the unit. Core, you'd just go all skink skirmishers to help win the maneuvering phase. Finish up the list with a substantial air force, with rippers and terradons to clear up enemy chaff and keep your cav bus in position. Don't forget a good number of chameleon skinks to take down warmachines ASAP. If you are facing cannons, be sure to deploy wide, to prevent cannons from racking up too many kills on your cav early in the game. It is a hilarious list that I think I will try to throw together real quick.

I want to see this in action , just for the fun of it! Charge, break, run down, repeat.

Looks like a tournament winning list to me!

The Hunted

 

[Reddogfish]

If the trog roared more than once it would be awesome for this...

on a fluff side... why the hell cant it... sore throat or something?

 

[The Hunted]

If the trog roared more than once it would be awesome for this...

on a fluff side... why the hell cant it... sore throat or something?

The hot and moist jungles are a nightmare for one's throat...That, and the fact that flies, bees and other flying critters enjoy flying in!

THe Hunted

 

[Iniesta]

I think a cavbus can work for lizardmen, and that frenzy should not be a big problem for it. Because lizardmen have so many tools to take care of enemy chaff, and have chaff themselves to occupy/engage at will whatever you want whenever you want because of more units and controlling deployment through it..
I would use a lot of skink units at ten models each as well as flyers combined with this type of list and use a refused flank setup as well in most games. throw out 5-8 units of 50-70 points before committing anything important to the table make you dictate the game pretty well..
Not sure if its better than a regular slannlist, but sure can have potential to be pretty allcomer tournamentviable. But you need to adress potential redirectors in your opponents army when setting up the list..

 

[Lizardmatt]

I'd probably try to get 2 OB, 3 SV, and a level 2 Beast Priest. The idea would be to make the cav unit pretty large, adding 15 models would give you four total ranks. Also, on the charge you're hitting with all characters, so the enemy can't attack rank and file to get easier kills. It also gives you 22 attacks from characters minimum, which can also benefit from PF.

With the banner, they are all frenzied. It's 27 attacks, with PF it's effectively ~30 or so attacks, and another 15 from the front rank mounts. If you really wanted, you could fit 3 Old Bloods into the army.
It's pretty fearsome to have a front rank of T5 1+ save models.


What's interesting, is at 2500, you can get 3 Old Blood and 3 scarvets, all mounted, a level 2 shaman, a level 1 shaman, minimum core, and 24 cold ones (2 units of 12). With the BSB with frenzy.
625 points of chaff should block and disrupt over-run issues and you have 2 death stars of cav.

-Matt

 

[Caneghem]

I'd probably try to get 2 OB, 3 SV, and a level 2 Beast Priest. The idea would be to make the cav unit pretty large, adding 15 models would give you four total ranks. Also, on the charge you're hitting with all characters, so the enemy can't attack rank and file to get easier kills. It also gives you 22 attacks from characters minimum, which can also benefit from PF.

With the banner, they are all frenzied. It's 27 attacks, with PF it's effectively ~30 or so attacks, and another 15 from the front rank mounts. If you really wanted, you could fit 3 Old Bloods into the army.
It's pretty fearsome to have a front rank of T5 1+ save models.


What's interesting, is at 2500, you can get 3 Old Blood and 3 scarvets, all mounted, a level 2 shaman, a level 1 shaman, minimum core, and 24 cold ones (2 units of 12). With the BSB with frenzy.
625 points of chaff should block and disrupt over-run issues and you have 2 death stars of cav.

-Matt

You could probably fit more characters in there, but I preferred to give some different kit to each of my 5 riders so that they can handle any eventuality. Too bad we lost the burning blade...

In 2500 I picked these guys
Saurus Oldblood, Cold One, The Blade of Realities, Shield
Saurus Oldblood, Cold One, The Piranha Blade, Sacred Stegadon Helm of Itza, Luckstone, Ironcurse Icon
Scar-Vet BSB, Cold One, Armour of Destiny, Great weapon
Scar-Vet, Cold One, Sword of Might, Dawnstone, Dragonbane Gem, Light armour, Shield
Scar-Vet, Cold One, Sword of Striking, Crown of Command, Light armour, Shield

Also managed to squeeze in this guy
Skink Priest (Lore of Beasts) Level 2 Dispel Scroll

So now the unit also does D3 impact hits at strength 5, which multiply to D3 wounds. The guy with the helm is tough and gets to reroll a failed save. The Blade of Realities will scare the pants off of a lot of things, and at least the Oldblood still has a 1+ armor save. BSB is nice and survivable, and pumps out some strength 7. Then you've got a fairly good all-around Scar-Vet duelist, pumping out strength 6 and rerollable 1+ save. Finally, our crown caddy will likely avoid challenges, and so the +1 to hit will make sure he cleans up his share of infantry. The level 2 will hopefully have some decent buffs, but will at least have Wyssan's.

Anyone else have their five horsemen of the apocalypse?

EDIT:
Oh right, the rest of the list is...

Core
10 skink skirmishers x 9

Special
Cold One Riders x 15; muso; standard
Ripperdactyls x 3
Chameleon skinks x 8

Not much to it really, it's just a big wind-up toy. Rippers and chamos will go after warmachines and the like.