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7th Ed. For those worried about Saurus in 8th edition

Caneghem
Carnasaur

Caneghem

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Fighting in initiative order seems bad for us at first, but with the way "stepping up" will work, striking first isn't nearly as important as it used to be. Overall, this change makes strength, toughness, and armor more important. Unless your opponent is taking out models in your second rank, you will get full attacks back (third rank for spears). Thus combat will much more closely represent combat potential rather than which infantry block happens to initiate the combat by gaining a charge or being quicker.

Just to put this in perspective, I'll run some simple numbers using the old damage calculator I still have on my hard drive.
Assuming 5x4 blocks for simplicity sake.

Empire Swordsmen vs. HW + Shield Saurus
Swordsmen strike first killing 0.74.
Saurus strike back with 3.33 kills on average.

How about some black guard? This could get ugly...

Black Guard (with rerolls) kill 3.33 Saurus
Saurus come back with 4.17

Wow, that's actually pretty surprising. Hmm, how about some dwarven elite?

Ironbreakers vs. Saurus
Ironbreakers (strike first!) kill 1.67 Saurus
Saurus kill 1.25

Sort of highlights the importance of armor, and the relative unimportance of offense. Having two attacks (for infantry), is now only 50% better than having 1 attack.

Chaos Warriors vs. Saurus
Warriors deal 2.5
Saurus kill 1.25

So you see Warriors outkill us 2 to 1, but remember they are paying a good 5 points more per model. The Saurus will have more numbers or other support, as there is a 100 point difference between these two blocks of 20. Also by some rumors, Chaos warriors won't be able to march anymore (3+ basic save?)

With the high value of armor save, I would probably advise a shift to HW+SH in larger numbers rather than spears.

Another big thing to keep in mind, that spells which buff or debuff troops will become much more effective. Let's have our Slann cast transmutation of lead on the Chaos Warriors.

Warriors kill 1.25
Saurus kill 1.88

That's a swing of 1.88 in favor of the Lizardmen.
 
Yah I figured as much. Shifting to hw+shield would end up better if the stepping up is as the rumors state.

But man all my saurus are modeled with spears :( , granted that only matters for WYSIWYG.
 
You really have to wonder if GW do it intentionally don't you... 6th ed, saurus weren't great but HW was better. 7th ed, for a year or so spears are better, everyone scrambles to change equipment. 8th ed, HW better again.

5th ed, go heavy characters. 6th ed, characters nerfed. 7th ed, heavy cavalry and heavy magic. 8th ed, characters, magic and heavy cav nerfed.

Suarus do look much cooler with HW, I think I will stick to doing a mixture and see how it plays out. We can't even really say what might be better until rumours are 100% confirmed by seeing the rulebook, and seeing what effect it has on othe armies.
 
Yep, for all we know, they could be getting rid of the HW+SH armor bonus. In that case, you might as well do spears!

Also not sure if our spear-saurus will get full attacks in the second rank or not. If they do, then they may still be worth it for a large number of attacks. But at this stage it seems like two attacks on the front rank and one each from the second and third. HW+SH seems to be the way to go. But the good news is 11 points is not much for an "elite" trooper, and the ultra low initiative is not actually that important.
 
I actually suspect that the only 1 attack in the second rank has nothing to do with spears at all.. I think that refers to the rule where everyone can fight from the second rank, but only with 1 attack, so things like Swordmasters (2 s5 WS6 attacks, rerolling misses (new ASF rule) and possibly still going first depending on what GW erratas for them!) don't become rediculous.

Maybe with spears, one rank will get the full compliment but the other rank won't? Thats what I'm hoping. But it could be just that GW think they are too powerful as is so spears will be weakened.
 
i think that this fights in two ranks is speculation. i think what they mean is that they get to step up. or the horde units get to atack in two ranks but only with one A, but i still think that spears should get theyre full atacks IMO.
 
What warhammer has been missing is the effect spears have on cavalry. I mena, if the mechanics of combat weren't being fundamentally altered I would say that all they should change about spears is give them some sort of benefit versus cavalry.

But, who can speculate. I'll just wait for the rulebook to come out.
 
From the rumors I have seen flying aroung...
either spear saurus are basicly unchanged...
or get better.

(attacks per rank)

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(one attack in second rank, spears can attack with +1 rank)
so basicly the same at 3 deep...

or

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(two ranks attack and +1 rank for spears, full attacks)

or

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XXXXX

(two ranks attack and +1 rank for spears, remove casualites from the back "steping up")
 
The problem with

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is that it requires an extra intact rank to maintain our current attacks. It hurts us as far as army composition goes, need more points invested to maintain the same attacks. Granted is isn't a huge hit if you are already utilizing 3 ranks in your saurus units, but if you are using 2 rank deep units than this is a significant hit.

And if they go

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then well we will all be ecstatic, but I highly doubt they will do this without at least adjusting our point cost.

And as far as this one goes

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XXXXX

This would be nice, and increase saurus spearmen still.

So 2 out of 3 have us getting significantly better, while 1 has us getting slightly worse But most of the rumors point to the first option where we get worse(i.e. more expensive to maintain same attacks). I will wait and see when the book comes out, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
 
Kurlin said:
Yah I figured as much. Shifting to hw+shield would end up better if the stepping up is as the rumors state.

But man all my saurus are modeled with spears :( , granted that only matters for WYSIWYG.
Click to expand...

Even with these rule changes there will still be lots of situations in the same game were you might want to fight with spears in one of your regiments and HW+ shield in the other. Paying the 1 point extra to be able to chose from one combat to the next if your going to have a better save or more attacks is a very good deal. And WYSIWYG is satisfied because they all have spears, they just aren't all using them.

Its like those silly halberds on the temple guard, most the time you would prefer the +2 to armor saves from picking up a shield and hand weapon, but every now and then there is an enemy or situation where you would really just rather hack them to pieces with the extra strength. WYSIWYG works funny with TG, because they are all seen wielding halberds in one hand and shields in the other, but you just can't do that.
 
Skrox said:
Kurlin said:
Yah I figured as much. Shifting to hw+shield would end up better if the stepping up is as the rumors state.

But man all my saurus are modeled with spears :( , granted that only matters for WYSIWYG.
Click to expand...

Even with these rule changes there will still be lots of situations in the same game were you might want to fight with spears in one of your regiments and HW+ shield in the other. Paying the 1 point extra to be able to chose from one combat to the next if your going to have a better save or more attacks is a very good deal. And WYSIWYG is satisfied because they all have spears, they just aren't all using them.

Its like those silly halberds on the temple guard, most the time you would prefer the +2 to armor saves from picking up a shield and hand weapon, but every now and then there is an enemy or situation where you would really just rather hack them to pieces with the extra strength. WYSIWYG works funny with TG, because they are all seen wielding halberds in one hand and shields in the other, but you just can't do that.
Click to expand...

I know, but what if I don't want to spend that extra point per model.
 
I have to agree with Sebulba. They really need to capture the idea that spears work wonders on guys on horseback (history has proven it!). I hope they do make some kind of bonus with spears vs cavalry...*ahem braveheart...*cough phalanx *ahem...
 
well if you've ever played with dogs of war, pikes are pretty devastating against cavalry!

imo spears are too common for them to be made awesome against cavalry. perhaps a slight buff would be nice though.


i really cant see why anyone would be worried about saurus in 8th anyway... they already strike last 99% of the time anyway! :P
 
Cavalry are going to hurt pretty bad against big blocks like saurus. Cav used to rely on wiping out the front rank, to prevent counterattacks that would kill some of their expensive guys.

Enter 8th edition. Models are removed strictly from the back, so while cav will still be devastating on the charge, the block will still get its full 10 to 15 attacks back. I needn't point out 15 is much higher than 0 attacks back! So unless the block is already weakened, I doubt the cav will survive subsequent rounds of combat, the infantry will get to just whittle them down. Cav will now need to combo charge, or charge a unit already engaged infantry to infantry, rather than flat out destroying heavy infantry.

This is as it should be! Though there will still be "uber-units" of cavalry, they will be hard pressed to expect to survive more than a round or two in protracted combat.

My thought on what spears might be is this...

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Spears allow the first two ranks to fight as normal, plus one rank that can add one attack. This might make the spears worth it, but again, armor will be very important.
 
If we get 25 s4 attacks I couldn't care less if I have a 4+ save instead of a 3+ save.. Don't forget how useful t4 is at deflecting attacks, especially against standard infantry. Be even against charging cavalry with s5, the difference between wounding us on 3's and 2's if it were 'standard' core troops is pretty significant!
 
geez i gotta change to hand weps, and all my saurus have already spears glued on them :(
EDIT: maybe i don't have to change, 10xtra attack or +1 AS, spears are still worth it.
 
FavoredoftheOldOnes said:
I hope they do make some kind of bonus with spears vs cavalry...*ahem braveheart...*cough phalanx *ahem...
Click to expand...


i was thinking they should give spears +1 strength when being charged. they basically stand strong and hold their spears out against the chargers right?
 
the-graven said:
geez i gotta change to hand weps, and all my saurus have already spears glued on them :(
EDIT: maybe i don't have to change, 10xtra attack or +1 AS, spears are still worth it.
Click to expand...

Remember though, you will be taking more armor saves on average, since all units will be dishing out more attacks. Though I too hope spears are a decent choice, if only for those who have all those spear models.
 
you know what really sucks. i think temple guard is going to take the fall in this new rule book. fighting in two ranks and lets just say you're running 20 6 wide, you're only getting the 6 in the front and 4 in the back because of the slann being there. but that's still 20 attacks at S5 w/ halbergs. its not bad but agains other elite units, this is going to suck.
 
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