7th Ed. Fighting MSU ogres

[Maedhros]

I'm playing in a map based campaign right now and one of my nearest neighbors, and hence most likely a common opponent will be ogres.

I've played him twice now in practice games (~2k points) and have gotten tabled both times, which is naturally a bit frustrating considering how looked down on ogres are generally.

My list is a fairly generic Slann list; TG, Saurus block, CoC, S.Skinks, C.Skinks, sallies, EotG. And his is a MSU ogre list with most units having two ogres and a champion. There are also a few butchers and rinox riders. I can't expect to get the charge on him with any reliability due to his long charge range and while I clearly out magic him it doesn't seem damaging enough or even remotely reliable.

So far my main tactics have been to try to cause panic checks with the sallies (which is iffy with str 3 and his big bases), shoot at whatever I can with the skinks while march blocking and try to not get flanked (which has been hard with my two blocks vs his 5-6 smaller blocks and fling as much magic at him as I can before it's too late. With would allocation tricks it's even hard just to kill off single ogres with shooting or magic. To boot the great weapons (str 6 and often more) tear saurus to ribbons since they need 2s to wound and go through what little armor I have.

The most straightforward way I can think of to take him apart would be a carnosaur but I don't have the model and am not allowed to change my army list. in the campaign. Hell I can't even switch away from Lore of Death on my slann in this current campaign set up.

Anyhow, regardless of whether I can implement the changes at this time does anyone have any advice for dealing with this? Different units, different spells, or just general tactics would all be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Kurlin]

Well haven't played against ogres but this is one of the few times I would recommend razordons over salamanders. But if you can't change your list your kinda stuck there.

Ogres are looked down on cause they are pretty much one dimensional, but I've also heard they can be really tough if you haven't played against them before and in the right hands

 

[Arsenal]

I usually run my Saurus in 18 strong blocks of spears, 6 wide. This would mean that even if your opponent managed to do all 9 wounds on their attack, you would at least get 3 attacks back, and this is in the worst case (not counting bull charge hits, etc).

Usually against very choppy things that will hit me 1st, like Iron Guts, White Lions, Black Guard, etc, I usually go with the age old mentality of "SHOOT THEM, SHOOT THEM NOW!". For lower toughness units I prefer salamanders, but Razordons can be brutal against T4 units if you roll well on a stand & shoot.

If you could change your list, the Giant Bow can be absolutely brutal on a flank shot, S5, no AS, penetrating ranks, D3 wounds. I decimated a few units of Minotaurs this way, flank shots as they approached my line. This REALLY works well if you can Second Sign of Amul from the lore of heavens for your Re-Rolls as you are only firing on a BS3. Without the re-rolls and BS3 it can be painful given you can really only shoot a maximum of 6 times per steg in a normal match. Each miss really hurts.

One other trick, is the Skink Hero on a terradon with the Staff that acts as a S5 short bow with 3X multiple shots. Great for march blocking and softening up some targets, but you yourself are super vulnerable to shooting and magic when out there on your own. Put him in a unit of 3-4 terradons and you gain some protection and a few extra poison javelin shots.

 

[Maedhros]

humm...yea I hear you both on the razadons vs sallies. I've only tried them once and was really disapointed by them in general but they'd most likely be more effective vs a high T army like this or dwarves. My main hope for the sallies was that I could cause panic checks vs his shitty ld7. He'd actually said he was scared of them when they went down on the table but ahh well.

Right now I run my saurus with 16 saurus and a tooled up and mounted scar-vet. They've been getting taken apart when charged by three ironguts and a tyrant. It clearly won't happen in the campain but I'm thinking of asking to use Gor-rok in my next friendly game to see if taking away the advantage of their impact hits and striking first with their GW on the charge.

I think I'm just getting really disapointed by magic. With so many dice involved it's fun but incredibly unreliable. To boot of course this ogre player always brings at least three dispel scrolls.

When I asked this ogre player what he felt the weakness of his army was he said without hesitation that it was low leadership so I'm looking for more ways to mess with that.

 

[Arsenal]

Well I think you have access to the Doom & Darkness spell which lowers LD by 3 until the start of the next turn. With 3 scrolls you'd have to hope for IR, but if you got that and did enough damage with the sallies and shooting to cause a panic test you'd be set to have him run for sure.

More recently I have gone more and more magic light, and opted out the Slann for last several battles and I wans't disappointed. Running two skinks and the EoTG scroll and diadem gave me the slight casting power and good defense I needed to get through most non-spam casing armies.

I even skipped out of the Carno to save points and went with way more blocks with two tooled up Scar Vets, and so far have been successful. It's more of a prep for 8th Ed than anything else, but I have seriously enjoyed my games much more when I wasn't reliant on a successful magic phase to make or break my plans.

 

[n810]

If you look at the fine print in Salies rules you have to cause a casuality to cause a panic... not just a wound.

This alone makes Razors better, also it's realy hard to hit more than 2 msu ogres with the template.

Against ogres Skinks are great, Cold Ones are fairly solid too, Saurus do Ok but you might want to skip on the spears for more defense.

 

[Maedhros]

Gah, thank you for the rule correction! Well that seals that in regard to the sallies. Next time I have a friendly game I'll just toss out the sallies for more skinks, or maybe a razadon.

I'm not sure that sacrificing my spear attacks for the HW/S save would be worth it. The hits that are casing me problems are all str 6 and str 7 hits. So the HW/S would give me a melee save of 3+ which would then be taken back up to 6+ or non-existent by the high strength hits. I'd much rather have the attacks back as I'm usually at least losing my first row.

Regarding the more core based army I'll have to give that a try, it sounds like a good idea to practice with.

 

[Eagleblaze]

I've played Ogres before, they'e not a great obstacle once you know how to beat them.

I vaguely remember something about their impact hits not occuring if they charge from less than half their charge range, double-check that first with your opponent but if that is the case keep that in mind, it will lessen casualties there.

Your EOTG causes terror, his ogres cause fear, flank charge something with less than 3 ogres in it, you will outnumber and autobreak.

Throw the salamander on the flank and then flame along his lines, then engage in CC when his line hits home, added CR which is all that you need to send him packing.

Your lore choice isn't too bad either. Cast Walking Death on your CoR, they now cause terror, throw them into a flank of a 3 strong ogre unit. They will hopefully survive given the limited attacks back and will then outnumber, another autobreak.

Steal soul will work well on his butchers or tyrant, and the magic missles are s4 which against ogres is quite handy, d6 s4 means at best kill 2 ogres.

Assuming slann with free power dice, 4 for slann, 2 in the pool. Cast Dark Hand on 1 slann dice and 1 free dice, then Wind of death on the pool dice and the free dice, 3 slann dice remaining so either go for walking death on 2 and 1 free, and then steal soul on one and one free, or throw them into Doom and Darkness.

Assuming you deploy on the board edge and do not move, even with his high movement you should be able to get a healthy amount of kills out of this. When he reaches charge range move into his range to negate his IH. (Range of 12", if he moves within 8" or less you move your full 4", if he is outside of the 8" then simply march - Once again, check this IH negation idea, I could be wrong)

Hope this helps
-Eagle

 

[dklyn]

I'm a little surprised no one was recommended the blade of realities for an oldblood (won't help you in the campaign but for general tactics). With every hit potentially autokilling an ogre, CR has to go in your favor .

 

[Kurlin]

I'm a little surprised no one was recommended the blade of realities for an oldblood (won't help you in the campaign but for general tactics). With every hit potentially autokilling an ogre, CR has to go in your favor .

The main reason no one recommended the BoR is we are trying to work within his current list(with minimal changes). And since he is running a slann list there is no one to take the BoR. If he went with an oldbood list then the BoR would definitely be recommended.

 

[Dave G]

Hi Maedhros,

It would help for specific suggestions if you could post your list and his list (or as close as your remember). Also, how does your group do terrain?

Some starting suggestions:

1) You've stated that you're trying to cause Panic checks (A good idea) but are having trouble with wound allocation. Are you focusing your fire until at least one bull is killed?

2) How are you deploying? Without knowing the specifics, I would use a refused flank type of deployment for your forces. Use a terrain piece to guard one flank if you can and Temple Guard on the other. In that way, they can't surround you and any of your combat units should win in a front to front conflict. If he doesn't want to attack your units, use your much greater ranged power (through magic and shooting) to kill his units.

You said that his units are tearing your Saurus to bits. Are your Saurus armed with spears? On average 3 IG w/ unit champ should only kill 4.16 Saurus w/ spears. If you are deploying them at 18 wide, you'll have 14 attacks back resulting in 2.92 wounds. You should have outnumber, 2 ranks, banner, +kills and he only has kills (assuming he doesn't have a banner, which is usual for MSU ogres) resulting in a winning combat for you. This could be a problem for him due to his aforementioned low leadership.

TG with their 2+ save but fewer attacks have 2.78 die and kill .62 back. But adding in the Static res again will in general win combat.

Even if he rolls well, you shouldn't lose by more than 1 or 2 and that break test near a Slann and his BSB is very make-able.

3) You implied that you were having trouble blowing through his magic defense (three scrolls). That is because scrolls are very good at protecting an army for a turn or two. If you really want your magic to take a toll, you need to buy yourself more time. This is probably best done by redirecting his units into unhelpful places. One of the weaknesses of Ogres is "Quick forwards, slow sideways". This is a perfect place to use that Salamander. He isn't going to kill anything but he can buy you more time.

Hope that all made sense and is helpful.

Edit: Oh, and the previous poster is correct. Ogres only get bull charge if there are more than 3 Ogre models in formation and they charge from more than 6" away. You should be able to minimize the number of times he gets to use Bull Charge.

 

[Maedhros]

All this feedback is very helpful thank you. I'm a tad surprised that I'm still getting suggestions for Salamanders since they have such a hard time wounding ogres with their str 3 and vs large bases which they'll usually only get partials on.

The following is my campain list as best I can remember it.

Slann, Becalming, mystery, rumination, BSB, Cupped Hands, Bane Head, Lore of Death (no changing)

16 Temple guard (couldn't afford command as much as I want a banner)

Skink Priest EotG, scroll and plaque of tepok

Scar Vet - CO, BBoC, LA, ES (have been fielding with Calvary)

Scar Vet - CO, SoSR, LA, Shield (has been going in my sarus block)

16 Saurus FC, spears

2 x 10 S. Skinks

5 CoC (no command)

6 Camelon skinks (since I don't currently have terredons)

1 (or maybe 2, I don't remember) sallamanders with the extra handlers

In retro-spect I feel that I've overspent on characters and would either drop some of the magic swords or the second scar vet entirely in favor of more skinks or perhaps another saurus block. While I won't get to change any of the above during the campain (unless my army gets wiped off the map) please don't let my list limit your suggestions too much.

For terrain our club is pretty casual and we tend to set up a relatively ballanced board which we both like and then roll for deployment. I'll try deploying to one side more heavily next time. I assume I still deploy my skinks fairly centrally in my first two deployments so as not to give away the tactic? I use this deployment style a lot in 40k but everything is so much slower in fantasy that I had been deploying fairly centrally with at least one flank pushed up against terrain of some type and or course skinks screening and sallies on far flanks to block scout deployment and move up for flank shots and charges. One thing I've gotten from this thead (and my last game with the ogre) is that my nasty 40k ork habit of deploying on the 12" line does me no favors in this matchup. I'll be furhter back in our next game.

When I say he is trearing through my saurus blocks it has on more than one occasion been his tyrant in with Iron Guts and the BSB. When he hit my saurus block head on with Ironguts and a butcher I held on until the Rhinox riders flanked a few turns later.

Following is my attempt to re-construct my opponents 2250 list from three weeks ago from memory. It won't be accurate but will at least give you the jist of what I'm up against.

Tyrant (magic weapons of one type or another)
BSB
2 x Butchers with scrolls and "boom stick"? (not quite the right name) but a bound item which does a bunch of mid str hits at range. He likes to use it to kill skinks.
3 bulls (champ)
2 x 3 Leadbelchers (each with champ)
3 Yeti (champ)
2 x 3 Ironguts (the ones with GW)
Gnoblar block (which he just uses to hold a table edge or harass skinks)
~7-10 gnoblar trappers
2 Rhinox Riders

Might be a little more than that but that is the jist.

Since I still don't know what to do about the ogres I'm going to pick on the dark elves this campain phase.

 

[Dave G]

The general strategy I would use against him is to slow him down, blast with magic, shooting, and then clean up what remains with my blocks. Magic, barring a string of irresistible forces, isn’t going to start being really useful until turn 3 or 4 after his scrolls have been used. And you should have magic dominance.

Think about your magic, due to lore of death, as essentially long range shooting + some other benefits. And shooting, for our army, is meant to reduce his combat effectiveness.

Delay:
First, what do we need to slow down? He only has two units that are dangerous to your fighters: The Rhinox Riders and the unit, probably IG, with his characters. In my opinion, everything else is support and is by far secondary targets for harassment.

Second, how do we slow down his units? Three major ways: march block, road block, and divert.
March blocking is a straight forward part of the rules. Road blocking, in my parlance this means to get and keep his support units in front of his combat units, thereby trapping his combat units. And lastly diverting his combat units away from yours.
I)March Blocking: use lone scar-vets, the COC, Skinks and Salamanders. But especially the Cham skinks.
II) Road Blocking: A lone scar-vet going into a screening unit of Bulls, non-character IG, or LeadBelchers should win those combats by challenging out the champion. You can also roadblock by diverting a support unit into the path of his combat units.
III) Diverting: Read the FAQ about skirmishers and charge direction if you haven’t. Use your lone Salamanders, since they aren’t really going to cause casualties, especially for this purpose. Skinks are also used for this, but don’t throw these away needlessly, as their blowpipes can add into the destruction later. Also, his Rhinox need to make a leadership check or charge. They have a natural leadership of 7. This can be handy for you.

All of those delaying tactics make heavy use of your support units and he is certainly going to try and stop you from doing these things. How is he going to attempt to stop you?
I)Magic: The only spells you are going to want to stop in the early game are those that will kill your support (Bonecruncher, Braingobbler, Bang Stick). Braingobbler can be let go if it is cast on a unit near the Slann. Ogres can go cast on a single die or two dice. So be prepared with a defense in mind for either one. Becalming will help in either case. You should also consider slaughtering butchers with your scar-vets if possible. The earlier you can gain magical dominance the better.
II)Leadbelchers: In general, they are much less good than non-ogre players think. They are highly variable and so will sometimes be awesome, a lot of times, they won’t be.
III) Charge your skinks: If you set them up correctly, this will lead to either road blocking or diverting his major units. Either one is fantastic. Also, you your fast support CoC, Scar-vets, possibly the EoTG to charge and kill of his support so your diverters aren’t so challenged.

So, hopefully he is slowed down and you can magic and shoot him a lot until he is so whittled down that your combat troops can mop up.

Other random notes:
-The EoTG and BBOC Vet are your best options against the Rhinox. A dual charge, especially in the flank will rock them.
- Your stuck with salamanders for your campaign, but they aren't great against Ogres. I'd rather have terradon's in a more perfect world.

There is probably more that I’m forgetting but that will probably do for now.

Good Luck and have fun!

 

[Gorgeman]

"With would allocation tricks it's even hard just to kill off single ogres with shooting or magic. "

(I assume "would" was meant to be "wound")

What sort of tricks are you referring to? It sounds dodgy to me, but I haven't played much so can someone who has more experience let me know if I'm on the right track?


Check the rulebook under Shooting>Removing casulaties>Multiple Wound casualties (p31 on the little rulebook, which is all I've got). It says you allocate wounds so that whole models are removed first, and any remainder are noted for the unit.

The example they use is a unit of ogres (3 wounds each), suffering 5 wounds from arrow fire (or a mgaic missile/spell in your case). 5 wounds equal one model dead, with 2 wound left over. So you remove one model and make a note that 2 wounds have been suffered by the unit. You should be able to take down single ogres with magic shooting.

He can't spread the wounds out so that, from 4 wounds, one model suffers 2 wounds, and two suffer 1 wound. As I understand it, if the unit is homogenous, then you don't allocate wounds or randomize hits, as the wounds/hits affect the unit as a whole. If there are different types of models within the unit (e.g. kroxigors, charcaters), the you randomly allocate excess hits from shooting, and then wounds go from there(Characters>Shooting>Characters inside units).

 

[Maedhros]

First off I apologize for my less than perfect spelling but yes you got my meaning.

The ogre players interpretation of the rules is that when there are different models within the unit that you randomize shooting wounds among the unit and pool wounds on models with the same gear/statline. I honestly didn't question it much as it's how 40k works (diversified nobs for example).

An example of this would be a four model unit of three Iron Guts with a champion and a butcher. The only two models here with the same statline/gear are the two normal iron guts so his interpretation is that the wounds on them are pooled (so 3 wounds total on either of those two IGs gives me a dead ogre), but that the wounds on the champion and butcher are not pooled.

The way we've been doing it is as follows. In your example I got 5 wounds (s you mentioned we actually o the randomization at the hits stage), I would then randomize 1-4 (1 & 2 normal, 3 champ, 4 butcher) and might get 1,2,3,3,4. This would put two wounds a regular ogre, two wounds on the champ and one wound on the butcher.

Reading over the rules you've pointed out again I do notice that one wound wasn't automatically being done to each ogre before randomization began as per characters in units (pg 74 BRB) and calling treating the champion model as a character is also questionable. I'll talk to him about it. I know he frequents ogre forums so perhaps they have details in an faq or something.

What do you guys think? Does the extra atk on the champion profile or diversified gear on freebooters (ogre pirates which can take mixed gear, not sure on their correct name) make them eligible to not share wounds? I can't find much in the BRB to support that argument now that I look more carefully.

Either way I need to go at the moment. Thank you for your responses.

 

[Caneghem]

I think you've been playing it right, you randomize hits amongst rank and file, champion, and characters. For ogres it is one of the only reasons to take a champion in units. Now remember you randomize HITS, not wounds.

In the case of Maneaters with different gear setups, I'd say you randomize hits amongst those as well. Any other way you do it winds up being skewed toward one side or the other. He'd be crazy not to take brace of handguns on every maneater anyway, those things rock!

 

[Dave G]

The way you play it is correct. Champions are considered individual models (like characters) for hit allocation. Although you randomize hits and then roll to wound against the model as Caneghem says.

Although it doesn't apply in this case due to your opponent's army list. I'm honestly not sure about hit allocation for Maneaters. I don't believe they are considered champions and so hits shouldn't be randomized. I think he gets to just pull whichever Maneater he wants after 3 wounds.

 

[jormi_boced]

Skinks have worked really well for me against ogres. Lots of poisoned shots on things with low to no armor.