8th Ed. Feedback needed on sneaky ideas vs daemons.

[ZaGreekie]

Hey everyone so i need help, i got a battle vs deamons this week and its for a campaign that im really enjoying currently the old ones have orderd me to destory everyone xD and im doing a farly ok job of it except this one deamon player stuck around my lines and is headed for my capital.

first i would like to apologize for my english im greek and i cannot aford to pay attention during English classes. (ha get it?!)


So, Deamons is one of thoes armys that is quite good especially as we say here " if you have the day of 5's "

So i got thinking of how best to counter deamons. and i also found some worrying things that may effect my list. anyway here is all my ideas / logic.

1st Skink preast with EOTG with "the other trickster's shard" 15pts and **all models friend and fo in base contact with this model must re-role successful wardsaves**

now this sounds simple enough BUT here is the sneeky bit, all models in base contact... this means that every single model that can be touched by the stegadon it effects.
this means it also effects impact hits and thunder stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

also the preast has enough points left to also carry a dispell scrol so you really get alot out of the unit.



2nd really not that clever just dragonbone helm on a saruas cowboy because i know this daemon player he takes 1 unit of 6 or 8 flaimers.


so i told you my steg idea, any one els have any input or could help??



Bit of background on the player he is very well versed deamon player last time i played him his list was

1 herald of korn (maybe 2)
1 tzeanch BSB with the misscast banner

2 bloodletters 30x i think

8 mounted deamonets

5 or 10 korndogs

and 3 devils? im not sure what they are called in english acualy.


But there is one thing i have to my advantige he never played a turnoment and he only plays at my local store and in the past 5 years at this store i am the first lizardmen player. and he only played against me once AND that time i was trying out alot of new stuff and also useing lore of light. so he does not know many of the lizard tricks i.e. cowboys, life healing stegs, and when i played him before i used sarus. this time im thinking skrox.


THANK YOU FOR ANY AND HELL HELP POSIBLE i dont want to loss my capital =/

 

[Stonecutter]

For the EotG, at the very least the priest will absolutely need the dawnstone to help stay alive since the bulk of the troops you are fighting against will be S5, KB bloodletters. Make sure steggie is in minimal contact with the daemons by doing a joint charge with a ranked unit (ideally on a flank with just the corner touching the rear rank). This will leave only 1 bloodletter to get at the priest so he should survive a little while before getting a KB that removes trickster's pendant. Here are a few more tricks for dealing with the bloodletter hordes:

1) sallies - a couple flame templates from the flank will cause ~20 wounds which even on a good day for the daemon player will strip a rank of 10 off the unit. Repeat as often as possible to deplete the units before it hits combat.

2) skinks - poison shooting ruins the BL hordes and javelin + shield skinks are perfect disposable units to use since they can be used to deflect and delay an entire horde. Used after sallie shots, this can further deplete the unit and even sacrificing a unit of 10 to buy an extra turn of time (for sallies to reposition to hit them again) is worth it since they only have to drop 4 bloodletters to earn their points back.

3) skrox - fielded in units with 3 krox & 24+ skinks. I find these excellent for taking on BL since trading a cheap skink for an expensive BL is a good deal - the skinks die while the skrox cause the wounds and rolling 6s for parry save is hilarious. Also, by reforming the skrox 12+ wide, the unit can advance, shoot and then stand and shoot again. This grants ~40 poison shots and once again helps deplete the unit after the sallies have flamed it. The skrox remain steadfast so long as 6 skinks remain since they will have 2 full ranks while the BL horde is likely to be down to <= 15 and only 1 rank by the time it hits combat. The added bonus is that the unit is very fast, causes fear and cannot be stomped. Steggie can be brought in to support on a flank with a counter/combo charge (make sure you have a champ to accept the challenge so the priest isn't forced into fighting a khorne herald), then it will rapidly be game over for the daeomon unit.

Other than that, the scar vet cowboy is ideal for taking on the flamers. The new flamer rules make them less effective overall since they are more expensive, S4 in combat and incur a multishot penalty when shooting. Steggie would also be ideal for killing these if a charge can be had since impact hits, burning alignment and thunderstomp will grind the flamers into nothingness!!

 

[ZaGreekie]

@Stonecutter

im a bit worryed about a few things.

1st getting 20 hits from a salamander is VERY hard yes stasitiscly very licly IF you are in the perfict position but that only happens once every 2 games maybe 3. chances that he would leave his flank so unguarded that i can pull that manuver off are unlikly. posible yes but unlikly.

2nd you have a really good point about the skink preast do you think it may be just to much of a points risk? that model with EOTG and everything is almost 400pts. and that is ALOT of victory points in a 2200pts game.
especialy if i have my slann and temple guard. that adds up to a total of almost 1500pts in 3 units. and this player has ALOT of units to flank with. (Korndogs, Slanesh riders, devils)

3rd even if i do get 40 shots off from my skrox unit (which is a good idea i never though of useing them like that) that is statistily only 4.4 dead blood letters and they will still rip the living shit out of me. IF my salimander does not get 20 hits in (which as i said before is unlickly)

4th what can i use to cover my flanks, if he has slanesh riders, and korn dogs thoes are both VERY strong units, and they will rip thro what ever i put on my flanks AND also they are FAST AS HELL so they will probly reach my flanks very quickly.

 

[ZaGreekie]

@stonecutter

i just relized another thing if i have 30 skinks with 3 krox and i put them in a formation of 12 files for the shooting bonus. that means when they charge me i have only 2.5 ranks. so end of combat i probly will have 2 left. and that is VERY wriskly becouse if i am not stedfast i will be checking on snake eyes surely.

 

[Hinds]

Sounds like you have a good idea of how to deal with him

 

[ZaGreekie]

Sounds like you have a good idea of how to deal with him

maybe not i think stonecutter find a critical flaw in my plan xD that a S5 bloodletter with killing blow can EASLY kill a skinkpreast xD

 

[Hinds]

Sounds like you have a good idea of how to deal with him

maybe not i think stonecutter find a critical flaw in my plan xD that a S5 bloodletter with killing blow can EASLY kill a skinkpreast xD

I still think it is a good plan vs the blood letters though it is risky yeah..
I don't have much exp with deamons really, but I would probably go with a MSU kind of tactic so you can get those flank charges etc.

 

[skillfull_dan]

So you know the major things to avoid, I wouldnt worry so much. Killing blow will be a pain against the skink priest but it doesnt really affect skrox.

In general I think the EOTG is great, it is a big point sink but in my experience it does a lot of work. Under no circumstances should it charge the front side of a bloodletter block though, that is just asking to die.

I would do as the others suggested, wear down the bloodletters with magic and ranged attacks, and dont charge in face first with your stegadon against a bloodletter horde. Even if you can get the charge off, demons are one of the few armies that need to be in melee even more than we do since the the flamer nerf. Dont be afraid to delay that melee until the horde is smaller or you get multiple charges off against the unit.

Also what lore are you taking? I have only played Life against demons but I imagine death would be very effective.

 

[ZaGreekie]

In general I think the EOTG is great, it is a big point sink but in my experience it does a lot of work. Under no circumstances should it charge the front side of a bloodletter block though, that is just asking to die.

Really? i dono im quite worryed maybe i just dont know how to use it what do you tipicly do with it?

Also what lore are you taking? I have only played Life against demons but I imagine death would be very effective.

i was thinking Life becouse of the banner that deamons half, remember dubble 1 or 2 is also mistcast, becouse of this throne could be REALLY usefull. but i was acualy going back and forth with death, issue i see with death is half of the spells are kinda useless in my case,

dreadknight. useless100%
Sun of Zarius, not very effective there only infiltry blocks are I5 AND it would wipe out the front rank of TG


and many of the damage spells are "no armor saves aloud" but ward saves they still have.

this is the list im currently considering.

http://www.lustria-online.com/threads/2200pts-campain-critical-battle-vs-deamons.10191/

 

[Stonecutter]

ZaGreekie:
1) Sallie templates - positioned 7" from the flank of a horde of 25mm troops and aiming on the line between two ranks, they will average 20 hits per successful template (16 when accounting for misfires). Even if they only shoot once and then flee back through your own lines to avoid combat, a single round of shooting can be worth it.

2) skrox - the krox fill in spaces and are treated as skinks for determining ranks (see page 41 of army book). Thus, a unit starting with 3 krox and 24 skinks has 36 skink equivalent spots (each krox fills in the space of 4 skinks). When formed up 12 across the unit has 3 ranks of 12 and a rank bonus of +2 & shoots 18 shots. The front rank of 12 skinks, 2nd rank of 3 krox + 6 skinks ( 12 skinks wide) and 3rd rank of 3 krox + 6 skinks (12 skinks wide). If 12 skinks die, the unit then has a front rank of 12 skinks, 2nd rank of 3 krox and 3rd rank of 3 krox for a rank bonus of +2. Arguably, the front rank should be shrunk to 9 skinks to ensure the front & 2nd rank are of equal size but this clashes with the rule for reforms not taking models out of contact so I generally leave them in an "illegal" formation since it benefits my opponent, not me. Regardless, the unit retains a rank bonus of +2 so long as 6 skinks remain to fill out the front rank. Tossing in some extra skinks allows a wider frontage, more shooting, and reduces the risk of dropping below the 6 skink level and losing steadfast before you are ready to counter charge.



3) EoTG or not? - Unless you are playing a very large game (i.e. close to 3K), I generally leave the EoTG at home since it dies too readily to cannons. However, as cannons are not an issue, it may be worth taking just for the burning alignment bomb against multiple daemon units. A regular ancient steggie is a cheaper option that does almost as much but it would kind of defeat the trickster's shard combo you want to try.

4) Slaan lore - life works great for a defensive battle (T6 skinks rock!!) and the EoTG can be healed if it does get wounded. Death is very useful since it can be used to snipe heralds, especially just prior to combat or to dominate the magic phase. Soulblight is yet another excellent spell to be used on a horde just prior to shooting at it since it will increase the number of wounds by 33%. Shadow also works well with a number of good hexes and getting off mindrazor on skinks makes them combat ninjas

 

[ZaGreekie]

ZaGreekie:
1) Sallie templates - positioned 7" from the flank of a horde of 25mm troops and aiming on the line between two ranks, they will average 20 hits per successful template

the issue i have with your mathhammer here is this situation does not take into account how the game plays out, what if he has his flanks coverd? he has enough units that he could easly cover his flanks and if he does then getting this kind of shot is ni-imposible.

2) skrox -

ahhh ok ok i get it now thanks!

4) Slaan lore

Originally i was thinking Death but then i rememberd that all death spells give "no armour saves" but the deamons still get there ward saves and the fact that all his korn deamons have magic rasistance means that he will at minimum have a 4+ warsave to the wonds casued by death making it MUCH less effective.

I was thinking going life just becouse its a good allrounder and the fact is if you start outlasting a deamon in combat you won. becouse eventualy he will start needing to take instability. so my plan was life, even a flesh to stone is acualy a offencive spell that will make him loss combat by much more and becouse of that kill more deamons.

i never though of shadows tho. giving it a read now. also what do you think of the list i had in mind?

http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=10191