8th Ed. FAQ1.3

[Spiney Norman]

Lets not get carried away, Cupped hands doesn't exactly take its place among the games most broken items, not all miscast results are end-of-the-world material, ok so you might cause a Lord of change to vanish from the table, but you might do nothing more than give that goblin shaman a bloody nose and lose some dice from your own pool.

Items that are more broken than cupped hands, hmmm lets see, off the top of my head;
Van Horstmann's Speculum
Annoyance of netlings
Pendent of Khaleth
Power Scroll
Book of Hoeth

And I'm sure theres others.

 

[mixer86]

In reply and continuing normans point, what do people regard as the most broken model/equipment out there in 8th?

Yours aye

Mixer

 

[n810]

Telelis + Book of Hoeth

 

[Alexius]

I played once vs HE player with both Teclis and Archmage ( with BOH )... that was crazy.

 

[vapor]

I think that 45 points for not only a 2+ Ward against first miscast suffered by our (trigger happy) Slann and also a chance to kill an opposing character while causing s10 wounds on everything nearby in a large template, or cause wounds on everyone under a small template, a wound on everyone touching the caster but not himself, cause a wound on EVERY caster in their army, or lower the opposing wizard's level is pretty much the best gamble you could ever make... I don't think 45 points is too much for that item even AFTER this FAQ on the power dice came up.. just my two cents

But how many other wizards got kicked in the teeth as hard as the Slann did with the new miscast table?

 

[rammramm]

And how many wizards can do what the slann can do for those points, with or without the new miscast table. And you are mostly making my point since cuped hands will protect a slann (who gets the biggest drawback from all the template/in base contact damadge because of the TG) from miscasts. The slann is a great character for his points cost with only a few drawbacks. One is that many miscasts hurt more than for most. Therefor an item like cupped hands is awesome for him. It wouldnt be as great for any other army, but for a slann it is amazing. I am not saying its broken, however it is realy good even with the new FAQ.

 

[vapor]

And how many wizards can do what the slann can do for those points, with or without the new miscast table. And you are mostly making my point since cuped hands will protect a slann (who gets the biggest drawback from all the template/in base contact damadge because of the TG) from miscasts. The slann is a great character for his points cost with only a few drawbacks. One is that many miscasts hurt more than for most. Therefor an item like cupped hands is awesome for him. It wouldnt be as great for any other army, but for a slann it is amazing. I am not saying its broken, however it is realy good even with the new FAQ.

You're acting like the Slann (and the almost mandatory for a competitive environment TG) are dirt cheap. Is he the best non-special character caster in the game? Hands down. Do you pay for it? Damn right you do. We aren't talking about Teclis or Fateweaver here. It's a minimum investment of 500 points for him and the unit which is a significant chunk of change at any points level..

Cupped hands is great, no doubt about it, but it's also not Ring of Hotek or Book of Hoeth broken. One use, chance of failure, chance of not being used at all (I've had plenty of games where I never saw an IF), passing off requires several other conditions to be met, rather expensive in an important item slot, etc. That's what kills me about people crying over it, it's very good but nowhere near as broken as non-lizzies (or the stubborn holdout's who miss the days of carni-lords) want us to think.

 

[rammramm]

I am aware of the fact that the slann is expensive. I am also aware of the fact that neither Hydras, HPA:s or Steamtanks are cheap. Does that stop them from being very good? No it doesnt.

I am not saying that the Slann in a TG-bunker with cupped hands is OP. Neither is any of the parts of that combination OP on its own. However, the slann is cheap for what he does. Compare the price and skills of a second generation slann and a modern slann with mystery, cogitation and rumination. The slann has gotten cheaper in the last edition and that makes him an extremely powerfull hero with a low price-tag for what he does. One of this close-to-mandatory units weaknesses can be mostly dealt with through an item for 45 points. This is cheap. I am not saying its "Wow that guy sucks because he plays unbeatable lists"-good, but the combination of these three creates one of the best units in the game. Other great units are Mortars, Hydras, marauders/CW (depending on who your talking to) and many others.

All I was commenting on in the first place was that people were whining that everything good with the LM is beeing nnerfed, and that GW made Cupped hands into a poor item. This I disagree with.

I agree that people shouldnt complain about armies being too powerfull, but whats even worse is when people with a powerfull army complain because their army is too weak.

 

[vapor]

I am aware of the fact that the slann is expensive. I am also aware of the fact that neither Hydras, HPA:s or Steamtanks are cheap. Does that stop them from being very good? No it doesnt.

I am not saying that the Slann in a TG-bunker with cupped hands is OP. Neither is any of the parts of that combination OP on its own. However, the slann is cheap for what he does. Compare the price and skills of a second generation slann and a modern slann with mystery, cogitation and rumination. The slann has gotten cheaper in the last edition and that makes him an extremely powerfull hero with a low price-tag for what he does. One of this close-to-mandatory units weaknesses can be mostly dealt with through an item for 45 points. This is cheap. I am not saying its "Wow that guy sucks because he plays unbeatable lists"-good, but it is one of the best units in the game. So are Ghouls, mortars, hydras, marauders/CW (depending on who your talking to) and many others.

All I was commenting on in the first place was that people were whining that everything good with the LM is beeing nnerfed and that they made Cupped hands into a poor item. I agree that people shouldnt complain about armies being to powerfull, but whats even worse is when people with a powerfull army complain because its too weak.

The second paragraph wasn't aimed at you Ramm, since you specifically said that you didn't consider it to be OP; it's a carry over from the thread I was reading on Whineseer. In effect, I was complaining about others complaining.

Comparing prices between editions is a poor route to take, since points costs for almost every army have been adjusted over that same time frame (usually cheapened to increase sales). And I also wouldn't say that the weakness is mostly dealt with-- just possibly avoided once per game by that 45 point item; which seems to be about right points wise.

I think the biggest problem most LM players is having is that almost every single FAQ update has been not in our favor. It seems like every time we get an update something else of ours has been hit in one way or another. The only thing in the newest one that I've noticed so far that helps us is that our sallies get to use the handlers leadership. Don't get me wrong, we have one of the strongest books out there right now, but it's strength lies in it's diversity and synergy instead of two or three 7th ed Daemon-esque overpowerings.

 

[rammramm]

I can agree that the comparrison with 7th it not great, however I still think cupped hands is very cheap. I would pay at least 65 points for that item even in its newer form, and that makes it cheap in my book. Guess we just value it differently and have to agree to disagree on that one.

When it comes to the nerfing of the LM I dont find any problems with it since I cant think of any FAQ:s that doesnt make sence. I dont think a slann should transform into a monster and dont think he should use a flying carpet. I agree that there is only one powerpool and that if an opponent removes dice from the powerpool he removes "my" casting-dice. I think it all makes sence and I dont think we will suffer from it all that much. I understand that you get tired when everyone is complaining about your army, but that is just the way it is. If you dont like it you should either find new opponents or start playing a weaker team. I personally dont mind people saying LM are good since I know its true. They deal with it or I tone down my list. We have fun either way.