8th Ed. Exploring our core options: Saurus vs. Skrox vs. "Vanilla" Cohort

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I've noticed quite a lot of discussion over the last few weeks on the merits (or lack thereof) of Saurus warriors and Shrox units. I figured we could use this thread to try to determine which of our core blocks is most viable and in what contexts they should be fielded.

For this discussion, let's keep the focus on combat blocks. Small chaff cohort units and skirmisher units are well known to be highly effective/useful, but they fulfill a different role.

So when it comes to core combat blocks, how do you pay your core tax? Which unit or units do you like best and how do you use them effectively? Why do you subscribe to one choice over the others?

 

[laribold]

30(ish) Saurus Warriors with Spears plus an added (foot) Scar Vet with Sword of Swift Slaying, Ench Shield and Potion of Strength.

Reasons for taking Saurus is partly modelling (I've converted and painted up 30 of the buggers, so I'll be damned if I don't use them!), partly because using infantry blocks was one of the reasons I started a Lizardman army, and partly because I think that they do an admirable job for a big, threatening Core unit.
(Bear in mind I run something of a Pred Fighter list - SW; TG; Krox and the mighty, mighty Troglodon!)

Sure, sometimes they'll get hit by a faster-moving unit with High T/ High AS that they'll struggle to Wound (hence why I feel they need to have the Scar Vet in there), but they've done sterling work on other occasions (Going toe-to-toe with a big Swordmaster unit and coming out the other side).

I've tried Skrox units a few times and they just seem to lose all the time (WS2 is very, very poor and leaves you hitting on 5s waaay too much), and whilst you might well be Steadfast, you're still relying on a Ld roll on between 5 and 9 to not run away. Against anything with High T/High AS that the Saurus will struggle with, the Skrox will tend to as well in my experience. Your opponent will tend to concentrate on taking out the Krox first, before they can strike (and even if you only lose 1 Krox) you're down to maybe 6 WS3 attacks, which isn't enough to put out enough damage. This leaves you with a small number of S3 attacks do do anything.

If I was after a substitute for Saurus, I honestly think I'd go for poisoned Skinks over and above Skrox... If you're needing 5s to hit anyway, then you may as well just try for the 6s...

 

[GCPD]

Skroxigor every time, for reasons mentioned elsewhere but I'll summarise here: it's the flexibility. They can run 6"/march 12", which is ideal for getting them across the board to put pressure on a flank. They have their javelins to put pressure at range, and the Kroxigor give them some punch in combat as well. They can go deep for many ranks, or wide for many attacks/shots. I would absolutely consider the poison upgrade on these guys.

Whilst they are a pale shadow compared to their 7th book heyday, they are still extremely useful and, I find, highly effective against Fast Cav in particular.

I primarily run these guys as a flanker, sitting to either side of my Temple Guard. Sometimes they go running up the board edge, which can be extremely useful at boxing people in (especially when 10 wide against Elven Fast Cav armies). Other times they form part of the battle line, positioned to weigh in on whatever charges the Temple Guard. And sometimes, they are pure and outright chaff that I'm happy to throw away, confident that they'll probably chip a few wounds off something in the process, and at least hold it up for a little while.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Your opponent will tend to concentrate on taking out the Krox

This is what I worry about!

Skroxigor every time

What sized units are we talking about? How many Krox per unit? Poison skinks or not?

 

[FRYtheEGGofQUANGO]

I've actually always relied upon saurus as my core, and then recently i've switched to skrox blocks to playtest them.
I've found that if you run them horde, the extra skink attacks (even with poison upgrade) are just worthless. Running them 5 or 6 skinks wide means the few skink attacks you actually get just do nothing, too. It's damage output seems to be all about how many 4+ the krox can roll to hit. And they don't get PF attacks if they are attacking from 2nd rank. And enemies rarely fail fear checks (it hasn't actually ever happened with my skrox yet..).

And when the enemy strike you, you are guaranteed losses with WS2 T2 5+AS. Or if the opponent is using a heavy hitter, he will target krox because they are the more important target in that case. Your T3 W3 4+AS krox are not exactly hard to remove, either. Also, BS shooting, and war machines wreck skrox units, especially since krox dont get LOS, bolt throwers penetrate ranks forever with T2 skinks, etc.

Saurus are slow as hell, but being T4 4+ for each trooper means the unit is much more tanky. This is important in close combat and vs shooting.

The skrox unit cannot play the grind game- unless you bring huge units of them, that is. And if you have a huge unit of skrox, well, for the same points I find saurus to do the job a little better in almost every case. I think the only exception is, if you give the entire unit poisoned attacks, and set them up against a T6 monster. I'd prefer poisoned attacks to be a free upgrade, though.

Also, it's worth mentioning that skrox units suffer from predatory fighter (due to the presence of kroxigor in the unit), as well as saurus blocks.
And skrox are Ld7 (unless the kroxigor are focussed down, in which case the block becomes Ld 5). This means you need your general near them, or they WILL likely break from CC.

 

[laribold]

Oh yeah, and I've just remembered another reason to not take Skink Cohorts.

You have to rank the little buggers up without going insane...

 

[miturian]

what is this about focusing down the kroxigor? as I've understood it, aren't the kroxigor untouchable until they actually, well, touch? (so as long as there are skinks to be moved in front, the krox are invulnerable)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

You have to rank the little buggers up without going insane...

That's a good point. Stupid Skinks... rank up damn you!

what is this about focusing down the kroxigor? as I've understood it, aren't the kroxigor untouchable until they actually, well, touch? (so as long as there are skinks to be moved in front, the krox are invulnerable)

I believe that was the case in the previous army book, but no longer. Any enemy model in base to base contact with the skinks (or directly in base contact with a krox, i.e. flank, etc.) has the option to attack the krox if they wish.

If the krox still that invulnerability, the skrox unit would be AWESOME. Even if it wasn't an outright invulnerability, but something like a -1 or -2 to hit because there are intervening skinks in the way would be awesome.

 

[n810]

Yea the FAQ on 7th edition book under 8th edition rules was a bit odd and it made them better than they where meant to be.
when they came out in 5th, 7th, and 8th edition the Skrox units pretty much work the same.
6th was a bit of an anomaly in that edition they didn't get a combined unit, rather there was a rule that Kroxigor could charge through a Skink unit, and then the skinks basically took a dangerous terrain test, and possibly ran away.

 

[GCPD]

This is what I worry about!


What sized units are we talking about? How many Krox per unit? Poison skinks or not?

20 + 2. I ran them without poison but this was a mistake and I should have dropped the Egg to get posion on them for sure. Every 6 rolled made me wince!

In my experience most opponents tend to focus on the Skinks. I have no idea why, but I assume it's to generate/deny combat resolution.

It's also worth pointing out that whilst saurus stats are advantageous on paper, in practice I have not encountered a unit with my skroxigor that would also not have gone through a saurus unit with equal ease(more so in the case of the wild riders, who lost half their strength before the combat started). And I would much rather my opponent turned his Trueflight Glade Guard or mass bolt throwers against the Skroxigor than any other target. They are going to shoot something, after all.

Oh, and I've had a unit of warlocks fail their fear test. Twice! This is why they are extra good out on the flanks against things that operate outside the bsb/ld bubble.

Edit: Bleh, and the point that I meant to make but completely neglected to, is that Skink-Kroxigor produce wild swings more often then Saurus. In other words, there's more chance of them having some amazing luck. Some of the examples I've given have, unarguably, been a result of luck (excellent poison rolls, failed fear tests, etc). Saurus don't have these same opportunities. Yes, The Skorixogr won't always take advantage of those opportunities, but at least they are there.

 

[Markhaus]

Skrox: if your opponent does not know they can target the krox, they attack the skinks. Sometimes they think they can kill enough skinks to make em run (they forget steadfast maybe?)

With my saurus block, the enemy is always running great weapons, so toughness 4 is the same as 2. They want to wyssans? Whatever, the skinks aren't going to wound anyway. The main thing is 8 saurus cost about the same as 8 skinks and 1 kroxigor. Or I can throw in extra skinks at 2 for 1 to absorb more hits. 1 wound of saurus = 1 wound of skink in great weapon land.

Kroxigor count for ranks, so I can have 5 ranks of saurus and spend 185 to get stubborn or 7 ranks of skinks to get steadfast which gives the same. As long as my slann is close it's LD 10 for either block

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Skrox: if your opponent does not know they can target the krox, they attack the skinks.

That's an awfully big gamble though. I'd imagine most players would know that they can attack the krox, or a the very least they would ask.

 

[GCPD]

That's an awfully big gamble though. I'd imagine most players would know that they can attack the krox, or a the very least they would ask.

Agreed. In my experience, most players usually ask when running through lists at the start of the game, and I explain it for those who don't much as I would any other particularly uncommon special rule.

 

[Markhaus]

I was trying to think if an explanation why some don't attack skinks. I would say 2/3 of people I have played knew you can attack them. I am happy to tell them, if they want to attack the kroxigor. Or maybe they want to keep things simple since supporting attacks can't target kroxigor.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I was trying to think if an explanation why some don't attack skinks. I would say 2/3 of people I have played knew you can attack them. I am happy to tell them, if they want to attack the kroxigor. Or maybe they want to keep things simple since supporting attacks can't target kroxigor.

It depends on the type of unit they are fielding. If they can't reliably take out the Krox efficiently then many players will target the skinks to rack up easy combat resolution points.

 

[Arbite]

I would like to second the point made on Supporting attacks against the Krox. Only the models touching the skinks can attack, which basicly cuts in half the number you have to worry about. I do agree that if you are bringing a big unit of SKROX, poison is a requirement. I usually run a set up of 17 skinks, and 2 Krox with banner and musician. I arrange them 5 across with the Krox on the flanks and a skin in the middle. it has a small foot print on the table. It can move quickly, it can turn a flank, or rear if used properly. I find most people don't fear the Krox and try to kill the skins for combat resolution.

I have been know to run a unit of 36 skinks and three Krox with poison. It servers as a pretty good hammer. it also is a place to hide tetteko. I have stuck him to the side and cometed the enemy without much fear or interference.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Only the models touching the skinks can attack, which basicly cuts in half the number you have to worry about.

That's a good point, the Krox are offered some measure of protection, but is it enough? As a flanker Skrox can do quite well (but most units can in that situation), but can skrox successfully perform the roles of a main combat block?

 

[pendrake]

Are multiple ranks of Kroxa allowed?

Such as:
Rank 1: skink 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6
Rank 2: skink 7, Krox 1, Krox 2, skink 8
Rank 3: skink 9, Krox 1, Krox 2, skink 10
Rank 4: skink 11, Krox 3, Krox 4, skink 12
Rank 5: skink 13, Krox 3, Krox 4, skink 14
Rank 6: skink 15 - 16 - 17 - 18 - 19 - 20

If that does not make sense, 2x2 Krox in a skink wrapper.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Are multiple ranks of Kroxa allowed?

Such as:
Rank 1: skink 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6
Rank 2: skink 7, Krox 1, Krox 2, skink 8
Rank 3: skink 9, Krox 1, Krox 2, skink 10
Rank 4: skink 11, Krox 3, Krox 4, skink 12
Rank 5: skink 13, Krox 3, Krox 4, skink 14
Rank 6: skink 15 - 16 - 17 - 18 - 19 - 20

If that does not make sense, 2x2 Krox in a skink wrapper.

Multiple ranks of Kroxigor are allowed in a skink cohort unit. However the formation you suggest is illegal because you must have 8 skinks for every 1 kroxigor in the unit. Therefore in order to have 4 kroxigor in a cohort unit you must field at least 32 skinks alongside of them.

So the closest legal formation to the one that you suggest would look like this.... (where S = skink, K = Kroxigor)

S S S S S S
S K K K K S
S K K K K S
S K K K K S
S K K K K S
S S S S S S
S S S S S S
S S S S S S

 

[GCPD]

That's a good point, the Krox are offered some measure of protection, but is it enough? As a flanker Skrox can do quite well (but most units can in that situation), but can skrox successfully perform the roles of a main combat block?

No. The way I see it, Skink-Kroxigor aren't supposed to go fighting big blocks. In my list, that role is reserved for the Temple Guard horde. Rather, Skink-Kroxigor fill a niche where they go for units with a lower model count, ranks, and attacks. This is playing to their strengths.

But, that being said, I don't think Saurus can be an effective main combat block, either, and at least the Skink-Kroxigor bring the aforementioned flexibility and utility that Saurus don't have.