9th Age ETC Chairman Furion Does 9th

[Pinktaco]

Nonono working as intended.

Which is another issue I have. Statistics once again tell him that the work good. Okay, so what is the difference between an army that work, but have limited builds and an army that works and have many builds?

It's true when he say there's a limit to how many items you'll pick, but if your prefered army only have a few select good items and for instance HE have a whole slew of items worth taking you can talk about statistics for all I care since one army will have more things to pick than the other.

Obviously though in the spirit of statistics one could give all the same amount of items and observe if all items are taken. I haven't counted, but I'm getting the feeling that HE have more items than LM

 

[The Sauric Ace]

Balanced with the exeption of HE

Which also seems to be how that certain HE players, is constructing their critique on the warhammer forum

Basically it if anyone suggest that "insert unit/object" is perhaps just slightly off balance, and could use a point increase; there are always some users, arguing that since elves has ONE weakness, they should be superior in any other aspect of the game. There are also sane HE users, though, and my hope are that the 9th will be updated with what they suggest, not the weird "White Lions are suppose to be the best unit ever, coz Fluff/T3!" argument, that tend to be thrown about quite a lot.


EDIT-----
My last bit, should probaply have been posted in the Openhammer/9th Age thread, However I got confused for a bit, about what was what Now It's there instead.....

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

Am I the only one who is highly intrigued/impressed with the "Grand Moment of Clarity" spell in the Lore of Old Ones?

 

[n810]

Hopefully, once everyone has had a chance to see what people have done, what they like and dislike, and once the obviously stupid stuff (WS2 A2 Ogres guy should be banned for that suggestion) has been cut out, then hopefully we will have a good game to play.

Yea that might be a bit too far but,
You gotta admit Ogres are pretty overpowered at the moment though ?

 

[LawGnome]

Yea that might be a bit too far but,
You gotta admit Ogres are pretty overpowered at the moment though ?

Honestly, I don't think Ogres have been overpowered since their book came out. At that time, no one had seen monstrous cav, and the 2+ armor save was a nightmare to deal with. However, since then we have had the Empire book come out with their 1+ armor saves, demons with their ward saves, DE with their warlocks, WoC with their 1+ AS and rerollable ward saves, and high elves with their banner. Every list I have seen people put together ranking armies has placed ogres in the middle of the pack.

I think that when most people complain about ogres being over powered, they are really just complaining that the same tricks don't work on them as do other armies. Yes, they have impact hits and stomps, and monsters can't thunderstomp them, but at the same time, everything they can field is weak to multiple wounds (like say a Piranha Blade?), they have WS 3 pretty much universally through the army, and they strike after almost anything else.

Mournfang are not the death machines they used to be. I don't ever field them in units greater than 2 anymore, because while they are scary with 2+ AS, they still only have T4. If they are in units greater than 2, they rarely make their points back. People know how to handle them now.

The only thing that is unbalanced is the ironblaster, and there is not a single ogre player out there that won't agree that they are undercosted. There is a reason these are comped so heavily. But really, it is just this one model that is great, and the rest of the army is merely good.

 

[n810]

I don't know, this sounds a lot like the high elf argument.

 

[LawGnome]

Fair enough. I don't think I am making a high elf argument, but there is possible bias. Still, based on my experience, I don't think ogres are overpowered.

Ask yourself this: which of these armies do you feel is the most powerful? Which is the least? For fun, rank them yourself
- Ogres
- Warriors of Chaos
- Daemons of Chaos
- High Elves
- Dark Elves
- Wood Elves
- Skaven
- Empire

 

[eron12]

Honestly, I don't think Ogres have been overpowered since their book came out. At that time, no one had seen monstrous cav, and the 2+ armor save was a nightmare to deal with. However, since then we have had the Empire book come out with their 1+ armor saves, demons with their ward saves, DE with their warlocks, WoC with their 1+ AS and rerollable ward saves, and high elves with their banner. Every list I have seen people put together ranking armies has placed ogres in the middle of the pack.

I think that when most people complain about ogres being over powered, they are really just complaining that the same tricks don't work on them as do other armies. Yes, they have impact hits and stomps, and monsters can't thunderstomp them, but at the same time, everything they can field is weak to multiple wounds (like say a Piranha Blade?), they have WS 3 pretty much universally through the army, and they strike after almost anything else.

Mournfang are not the death machines they used to be. I don't ever field them in units greater than 2 anymore, because while they are scary with 2+ AS, they still only have T4. If they are in units greater than 2, they rarely make their points back. People know how to handle them now.

The only thing that is unbalanced is the ironblaster, and there is not a single ogre player out there that won't agree that they are undercosted. There is a reason these are comped so heavily. But really, it is just this one model that is great, and the rest of the army is merely good.

Well reasoned and spoken.

 

[skink chief]

Fair enough. I don't think I am making a high elf argument, but there is possible bias. Still, based on my experience, I don't think ogres are overpowered.

Ask yourself this: which of these armies do you feel is the most powerful? Which is the least? For fun, rank them yourself
- Ogres
- Warriors of Chaos
- Daemons of Chaos
- High Elves
- Dark Elves
- Wood Elves
- Skaven
- Empire

I allways think more in Tier lists, and Ogres are sitting nice in T2 out of the 4 tiers I allways think off.
They're a strong list but not OP for me personally.

Tier 1: (too bloody strong)
WOC, DoC and lastly HE.

T2 (might need some nerfs here and there)
Ogres, DE and lastly VC.

T3 ( the most balanced for me)
LM, Empire, Skaven, Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Dwarves.

T4 the ones that really need buffs.
Bretonnia, WE,TK.

I don't disagree with statlines for Ogres but some units could do with a small point increase imo.

 

[serbianwolf]

disposing of character walls will be a significant hit for ogres, but i dont mind, ogres are a solid army and i like a chalenge...i never heared anyone call them overpowered...

the ironblaster never did anything for me in most of my games....i keep one in my lists mostly as a precaution if somone brings a demon prince or somethnig of that sort...wouldnt mind a price increase....

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

T2 (might need some nerfs here and there)
Ogres, DE and lastly VC.

T3 ( the most balanced for me)
LM, Empire, Skaven, Orcs & Goblins, Beastmen, Dwarves.

If we're talking about 8th edition, then I think you have rated DE and Skaven too low. Certain builds can be downright broken.

ogres are a solid army and i like a chalenge...i never heared anyone call them overpowered...

I've actually heard that argument made, but on the whole I consider them to be just a pretty solid army.

 

[Caprasauridae]

I've actually heard that argument made, but on the whole I consider them to be just a pretty solid army.

I think it depends which army is facing the Ogres. For example, Tomb Kings, not a strong army to begin with (in 8th), really struggles against them, as Ogres really nullify most of their specialties (Killing Blow, Monster Smash, Skeleton Wall of Bone etc.).

EDIT: Forgot to add that I think Ogres can be pretty strong, but are usually very mid-tier.

 

[Pinktaco]

Remember that most armies are build dependant and there's a difference. Some armies are objectively better than others because they can easily deal with some issues, however making lists can be kinda problematic because you have to look at it from the perspective of each army since some armies deal with some things in different ways.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

I think it depends which army is facing the Ogres. For example, Tomb Kings, not a strong army to begin with (in 8th), really struggles against them, as Ogres really nullify most of their specialties (Killing Blow, Monster Smash, Skeleton Wall of Bone etc.).

EDIT: Forgot to add that I think Ogres can be pretty strong, but are usually very mid-tier.

They definitely have some strengths (Ironblaster, Hellheart, chaff, gutstar, combat potential), but they are not without their weaknesses (a Purple Sun will ruin their day pretty quickly). I think with the right build they are definitely above average, but there are stronger armies out there.

 

[n810]

True, but for us, Casting Purple Sun equally dangerous to our own troops. (including the Slann)

My experience with Ogres in a completely straight out of the book un-compted environment.
I know a lot of you play in heavily compted environments.

So I face things like GutStars, (crazy charge range, impact hits, dozens of high strength attacks, then stomps, fear, and magic)

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

True, but for us, Casting Purple Sun equally dangerous to our own troops. (including the Slann)

My experience with Ogres in a completely straight out of the book un-compted environment.
I know a lot of you play in heavily compted environments.

So I face things like GutStars, (crazy charge range, impact hits, dozens of high strength attacks, then stomps, fear, and magic)

I'd happily pit my WoC against them any day!

 

[n810]

well, yea,
that's because that's the only stronger melee army.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

well, yea,
that's because that's the only stronger melee army.

HE, DE, Dwarves and DoC can all put forth extremely potent close combat armies.

 

[serbianwolf]

i agree with @NIGHTBRINGER , I mean try an uncomped DE executioner death star or witches, or HE whitelions , they rend everything in their path....

ogres excel at mellee indeed, but are less powefull in shooting and magic, which the elves aint....