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9th Age Discussion of OpenHammer (ETC) and Ninth Age (Swedish Comp)

Because, clearly Lizardmen have been wining all the tournaments lately... :eek:
 
Yeah, I've kinda lost interest in the whole discussion. For whatever reason, people seem to just be suggesting massive nerfs to everything. I guess when everything is terrible, nothing is.

I've limited myself to only commenting on to the two armies that I have personal experience with (lizards and ogres). My only suggestions are for ways to improve some of the less used options, while giving game design reasons for why some of the ideas people suggest are stupid (such as PF or giving maneaters ironfists as an option). While I personally hate WoC, and feel it is a broken, unbalanced army, I do not know enough about it or its mechanics to be able to really give a worthwhile opinion.

I don't know why people are so insistent on knocking down lizards so much. All we have that is really annoying is cowboy spam, compared to things like the banner of the broken dragon or skullcrushers and nurgle warriors. Ogres have the same thing. People were actually advocating making base ogres WS2, A2. What the heck?

I hope that the people setting the whole thing up are good at separating the good ideas from the terrible. The community discussions are really starting to bug me, because everyone seems to be attacking things they don't like, rather than offering suggestions for making the less used options more attractive. They keep trying to make things more complicated.
 
LawGnome said:
Yeah, I've kinda lost interest in the whole discussion. For whatever reason, people seem to just be suggesting massive nerfs to everything. I guess when everything is terrible, nothing is.

I've limited myself to only commenting on to the two armies that I have personal experience with (lizards and ogres). My only suggestions are for ways to improve some of the less used options, while giving game design reasons for why some of the ideas people suggest are stupid (such as PF or giving maneaters ironfists as an option). While I personally hate WoC, and feel it is a broken, unbalanced army, I do not know enough about it or its mechanics to be able to really give a worthwhile opinion.

I don't know why people are so insistent on knocking down lizards so much. All we have that is really annoying is cowboy spam, compared to things like the banner of the broken dragon or skullcrushers and nurgle warriors. Ogres have the same thing. People were actually advocating making base ogres WS2, A2. What the heck?

I hope that the people setting the whole thing up are good at separating the good ideas from the terrible. The community discussions are really starting to bug me, because everyone seems to be attacking things they don't like, rather than offering suggestions for making the less used options more attractive. They keep trying to make things more complicated.
Click to expand...

Very much sums up, my fears of where this project is headed. It seems like too much of the time, suggestions are argued based on which army one preferes. If I say that perhaps White Lions are too cheap, I must hate High Elves, If I comment about giving a boost to rarely used units like razordonds, I'm clearly unaware of how they're used and a Lizard lover... etc.
Not that certain suggestion doesn't follow these rules, but it seems like certain armies just has to be kept stronger, solely due to the fact that more people play it and thus will have more supporting in a buff than a nerf suggested.

I really think we could be handed some sort of buff with some of our units. I like how a bloke on the forum put it:

Every army needs 1 thing they do best.
Every army should have multiple ways of using their units, such that not one game style over flows the meta

There were others, but I really feel like that this should be the approach

We need to look at what's not being played, then how to make them useful. The fact that we're a community, that can take feedback and change price according to how they play, should be far superior to the way it has been done so far.

Finally I have to say that I feel like both Saurus Warriors, Temple and Cold One (Maybe not now with lances instead of spears) should be improved and especially if we get rid of PF. Elves got a new rule, since we apparently didn't like re-rolls :confused: So IF, PF is taken away I really think that these guys should get something, that makes them useful, beyond some very "over-the-top-superior-tactician" way of fielding them.

Oh And I think the Carnosaur needs some loving..... Since I have both the new and the slightly older Tin model and I have NEVER used them! :argh:
 
Just to be clear :) My reply was based on the discussion on the warhammer org forum, I think we're pretty understandable about our suggestion on here. I get when people are being less serious and I understand the point of view. We are, however, all intersted in a more detailed or at lease fun experience, when fielding our lizards. Such that, in general, our suggestions are reasonable and not too farfedtched an idea.

Except of course for some of my own crazy creations of fun! :D
 
New suggestions:

Kroxigors can switch GW to halbard for free.
Add one of the following to their stats: +1W, +1A or +1AS.
Price remain the same.

That'll allow them to strike at initiative and still be powerful (S6 with S5 stomp). Whether or not we should aim for glass cannon or more survivabilty is a hard choice.

Razordons gain armour piercing.
Price increased by 5pts (or something else).
Unit is capped at maximum 4 models/unit.

This deals with several issues such as:
It's now a unit that's effective in both small and large numbers.
Money-wise it's more affordable for new players.
Damage output is the same (4 with AP vs 6 vanilla will do the same against highly armoured units).
It's not overpowered because of the above mentioned.
You're still allowed to take 6 models - you can split them in 2 units of 3, but buffs are now not as powerful which is a fair nerf.

Cold one Riders to gain +1 wound.
Other units to gain the same: Dragon Princes, Chaos Knights, Blood Knights.
Price proposal: 40pts with spears included (CoR).

Ripperdactyls to lose either KB or rerolls and gain ASF.
Or add +1I to their stat line with a slight price increase.

Their main issue isn't their damage output it's that they risk dying before they swing. Allowing them to be bullet you can fire and forget will make them more worth it. Currently they can be used and to great effect, however, it require a lot of skills and attention.
 
I would really like to see some love for the cold one riders :) currently they are among my favourite unit, that just collects dust on my shelf. Given them more wounds would perhaps make them more desirable and the fact that they would have lances now. I still believe that we can cut it at 35 ppm, they have stupidity and properly nor PF.... so, yeah :D
 
Wow just read this entire thread for the first time. Didn't even know ppl were bussy making a 9th ed.
There is one comment I miss here from anyone. A lot of ppl are saying that with a new edition the creators should be carefull with nerfing to much ( even the OP choices), because then players will not want to play the game. I just have one comment on that: what was your first impression with the latest LM book? On the infamous youtube channels like MR Malorian and such, most of them were like: they got nerfed (maybe not hardcore nerfed, but overall a nerf). Were you angry (if you did feel the same way). Did you not want to play 8th with this new book? Now think about the change from 7th ed. to 8th and repeat the questions. You play 8th don't you? And you probably hated 8th at the start didn't you?

I think when a gamesystem comes out that is more balanced (even if your faction gets nerfed) a normal minded adult player will not like it at first, but after playing some games and seeing that there is more balance and more valiable options for him to create a unique army will keep playing the game he so loves.

From 7th to 8th there was a small war how retarded 8th was, yet we all play it. AoS is a totally different game and this is not war, it's nuclair ( so ofc, most of us don't like it, because it is not the game that is changed, it is a totally different game.)

Short version of what I'm trying to say: If this 9th comes out non-beta, people will play it and if the game is better ( 8th is pretty messy isn't it?) they will play the fck out of it ;-).
You will allways have those guys that want to play the best faction ( DoC, WoC right now). Fck 'm , really I mean it, fck those guys that just want to play the OP armies, let them quit this game idfc! Give the normal players a balanced game even if these bring on the nerfbat and people will eventually love it!

That's my take on it.

One more thing, I haven't read true all the magiX, but it seems like one big issue with OP magic phases seems to be adressed. Even as the LM player with the strong Slann, I absolutely love the first sight of it! Magic should be strong but not throw 6dice win the game.
 
On other notice the changes to LM that are sugested are absolutly fine IMO.

The Krox changes: I'm for the T5 even if one costs me +10pts. a saurus has T4 for crying out loud, it just makes sense that this towering beast has more Toughness doesn't it? Apply these changes to other comparable units => Rat Ogre and Minotaur come to mind.

I would love the fact of Skink on CO for another option in the core, even if they suck. I would find this unit hilarious and would love to play them :D. ( actually would love to see some kind of Running bird (ostrich like with colourfull feathers), but myeh GW won't make these things :( ) => if there is some sculpting god here that can create something like that pls tell me :p. Or a sort of Iguana for skinks to ride! Oh the dreams! :D
 
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I think most people were in agreement that the Slann (who took the biggest hit) could do with a nerf. I'm not entirely sure what we got was what we needed, but what we got is alright. Personally though I started with the 8th edition AB so I can't quite comment on being annoyed, but my impression wasn't that people were outraged. Some might have voiced their opinion, but again I think most would agree a nerf was due.

Currently I can think of the following units being OP:

Skullcrushers
Frost phoenix
White Lions
Warlocks
Banner of derp
Beast of Nurgles

And probably others.

Most of the above can do with a simple price increase to reflect their amazing load of special rules. In fact I think most of these can easily be fixed with a price increase. The banner is getting a stat nerf and that's fine. Skullcrushers will likely face more spears so we have to be careful not to overly nerf them now and add spears on top of that.

Lastly Swedish Comp are making the calls. I've directly said to them that they should do what they feel is right and not let them be forced to do something because of whining from players - which they agreed with me.

To finish up - the old disciplines of the slann couldn't be fixed with a mere point increase. We'd still take the disciplines because they were just that good. Loremaster to all lores? Yup, give irresistible force your opponent? incredible. Gain free power dice? Very good.
I don't think the above mentioned need an overhaul in special rules. Giving an appropriate price value will do most of the job the way I see it.
 
skink chief said:
I'm for the T5 even if one costs me +10pts. a saurus has T4 for crying out loud, it just makes sense that this towering beast has more Toughness doesn't it?
Click to expand...

Just because something is bigger doesn't mean its skin is harder to penetrate.
Krox's have a 1 better Scaly skin and more wounds than a saurus, thats where it is represented.
 
Phatmotha-phucka said:
Just because something is bigger doesn't mean its skin is harder to penetrate.
Krox's have a 1 better Scaly skin and more wounds than a saurus, thats where it is represented.
Click to expand...

I just feel that is where they could use a small buff. I would be more interested in playing them if they receive +1T for a bigger pricetagg. Because they get more value. Krox right now I feel are a one trick pony, and if you're going to a tournament or whatever and you don't know what you're up against, the T5 will give them more options in who to fight. A standard inf. block will need 6's to wound. Now, they are def. not viable to put them in a inf block. Is it the right choice to put 'm in there with T5? no, but at least it is ok-ish and not a total waste of points in some match ups.
 
On the topic of krox, the only thing I am missing is: command group.
There is nothing else needed on them to be honest, I at least find them a very viable unit!

T4 AS 4+ isn't exactly soft......T5 would need them to go up at least 10 - 15 pts a pop.
S7 is hard hitting
The amount of attacks is plenty, and with the ability to get more it gets even more ok.

Strong movement speed, good leadership and plenty of access to magical back up.

My wish would be for them to go down in points so I could bring my whole collection ^^
 
Pinktaco said:
Kroxigors can switch GW to halbard for free.
Add one of the following to their stats: +1W, +1A or +1AS.
Price remain the same.

That'll allow them to strike at initiative and still be powerful (S6 with S5 stomp). Whether or not we should aim for glass cannon or more survivabilty is a hard choice.
Click to expand...
Interesting... I like those ideas. Add a musician and we're golden.
Pinktaco said:
Razordons gain armour piercing.
Price increased by 5pts (or something else).
Unit is capped at maximum 4 models/unit.
Click to expand...
Personally I'm not a fan at capping the unit at 4 models.
Pinktaco said:
Too much.
I9 and we're good.
Click to expand...
DEAL! :cool:
 
skink chief said:
A lot of ppl are saying that with a new edition the creators should be carefull with nerfing to much ( even the OP choices), because then players will not want to play the game. I just have one comment on that: what was your first impression with the latest LM book? On the infamous youtube channels like MR Malorian and such, most of them were like: they got nerfed (maybe not hardcore nerfed, but overall a nerf). Were you angry (if you did feel the same way). Did you not want to play 8th with this new book? Now think about the change from 7th ed. to 8th and repeat the questions. You play 8th don't you? And you probably hated 8th at the start didn't you?
Click to expand...

I share your opinion that the game should be balanced out as much as possible, but I do feel that it must be done very carefully. The situation you describe is very different from the one we find ourselves in now...
  • the Swedish Comp & ETC guys are not an authority like GW is. If GW came out with something someone didn't like, they pretty much had to accept it if they wished to play Warhammer. That is not the case now, where players can simply choose to play regular 8th edition which is more "official" than 9th age
  • while the Fantasy community was never as large as 40k, it was far healthier than it is right now. Further fragmentation could easily lead to the death of both 8th edition and 9th age. It is very important to bring as many people on board as possible.

I play WoC as well, but I readily admit that they have elements that need to be toned down (skullcrushers being one of them, but there are plenty of others as well). However, even an army like WoC has weak & underused elements that probably need a boost. I think a balance must be struck, otherwise you risk alienating potential players, during a time when we need every player we can get.
 
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