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9th Age Discussion of OpenHammer (ETC) and Ninth Age (Swedish Comp)

The Sauric Ace said:
I like the concept, it's most likely just difficult to completely comprehend how this would effect the choice:) perhaps starting by making it a 3 pts upgrade, if they then won't see a lot of use decrease it to 2 pts ;)
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I think GW is for a time where we're looking at adding new units and not now. ^^

With that said I hope they give a buff to Spears. <.<
 
i think saurus wiuth gw would be to much, hellbards at the most...
 
... yep we suffer from lack of choice. (mostly core)
 
n810 said:
... yep we suffer from lack of choice. (mostly core)
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Well yes and no.

If blowpipes somehow became a better choice along with skrox units it would definately make for a more appealing core section, but with that said we "only" have 2-3 different model types and that's kinda low.

Also for instance The Empire have a lot of core units, but they're all different variations of each other e.g. spear, sword and halbard state troops are all the same. Then there's the milita and 3 of the same kind of knights.
 
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Also I think we're one of the only communities to actually have constructed a list from all of us and not just random people rambling on their own behalf. I think it's great that we all contributed and hope that we'll be "rewarded" by actually being listened to :D
 
Not a fan of GW Saurus. At a push I would go with Halberds but hw/spears will always be my preferred option.
 
Skink cavalry as core unit! But it should be rather the song of the future
 
What would people like to see of new units/heroes/special characters in the unit?

I've been thinking of Savage Saurus (Core unit):

WS3, S4, T4, I2, 2A, Ld6, M4.
13pts.
Scaly skin 5+.
Frenzy.
Can take additional Hand weapon 2pts.
No shield.
No magical banner.
Special Rule: Savage charge - constraining from charge is done with only 2 dice, however due to unnatural thirst for killing they gain +2M during charges.

Too dumb? Too similar to savage orcs? Too many attacks? (4A/model).
 
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Weapon stats are up here are the new prominent changes:

Parry = 5+
Spears are only allowed for infantry units and grants killing blow against cavalry, monstrous cavalry and chariots.
Mounted units who formerly used spear gained lances.

So out Saurus Warriors got stronger and so did our CoRs. Interesting.

@protector time to crunch math with new and improved saurus warriors :rolleyes:
:p

**EDIT**

I completely forgot that the new killing blow = no armour save and D3 wounds. Spear saurus warriors can murder monstrous cavalry in one round? <.<
 
Does a shield still add +1 to AS a well?
Or is it just a 5+ parry?
Tbh i think a 5+ parry is probably too much.
(Just think how annoying it is vs daemons seeing all your attacks just bounce off.)
Did they really need to lose mounted spears too? Just seems a bit odd... i like the differentiation between spears and lances tbh.

Not sure KB really needs the d3W either.
I'd much rather it did 1w but allowed no saves of ANY kind.
Still scary for characters but not instakill, doesn't just butcher monstrous stuff and makes ward saves less all-encompassing.
 
yeah I think shields are still +1 armour. So our saurus warriors can have 4+/5+.

I think it's a spiral of upping the power of certain things: spear mounted cavalry got a strenght buff so they buffed parry to compensate for that, however if you buff parry you leave spears in the dust and thus they got a buff as well.

I'm not entirely sure that's the right way to do things, but we'll have to see. We also have to remember that there isn't a whole lot of sword and board units. I actually think this'll help diversify some armies. For instance Savage Orcs vs Orc Boys and GW Grave Guards vs word and board Guards, swordmen statetroops vs halbard statetroops etc.

It's somewhat of a double edged sword because some tarpits will be even more annoying to get rid off. Can skaven slaves gain a shield? <.<
 
Cold one riders are more viable now since they actually have +2 str on charge, great!
I think handweapon and shield needed a buff, alot of the other weapons are so much better.

And think about flying skin chiefs with spears, 6 str!
 
From one of the developers of 9th Age:

We are counting on going back and revise it every update period (3 months). I can say from a developer perspective, the rules are not 100% balanced at the moment. And IF they are, we wouldnt know. We need playtesting.

This is the alpha and the main reason we work on beastmen before BRB is ready is to show in what direction we want to take the list. Also to show examples how to make updates and get feedback on layout etc. This is working out great and keep up with the feedback, it is highly needed for us to be able to move forward. Thank to evryone posting!

That's great news. I like that they're actually taking in our feedback and checking the forums. It doesn't automatically mean that they'll actually use what we suggested, but it's comforting to say the least. :)
 
So I've discussed with some of the other members about the LO suggestons and these are things people have commented on it:

  • Overall people seem happy about the list. It's not too much and not too drastic.
  • Some don't like the idea of actually stacking Piranha blade and steggie helmet.
  • There are mixed feeling concerning PF, but it's hard to say whether that's LM player or others commenting (bias).
  • An increase on the price of cowboys shouldn't be on the actual model, but the mount. We don't want to nerf infantry characters.
  • A reduction of 5pts on swarms won't do much. People want it in core it seems.
  • I've had a long discussion about razordons. Apparently the Italian community can make them work. I've asked the guy to create a tactica on LO, but he wasn't interested. I've asked for a razordon army list. At any rate he believe that AP for razordons is too much.
  • One mentioned reducing skink cohort with 1pts.
  • I've also discussed with another that reducing point on blowpipes or increasing javelin cost by 1pts won't do anything. We'll have to rethink this, but how important is it? Personally I have 2 suggestion.
  • A) Give them a seperat unit entry (so we can essentially avoide the current "only 4 of the same core units" and have a skink cloud with mixed javelin/blowpipes.
  • B) Increase BS to 4 and increase their cost ~9pts? They still wouldn't interfere with camo skinks.
I think that's it for most part. I've made some long posts and gotten some long answers so it's somewhat hard to boil it down to just the essential stuff. One player, however, didn't quite think we'd need a buff to ripperdactyls nor add chief to the giant bolt thrower on the baby steg.

If people would like to comment on the following I'm more than happy to update the old list.
 
Pinktaco said:
So I've discussed with some of the other members about the LO suggestons and these are things people have commented on it:

  • Overall people seem happy about the list. It's not too much and not too drastic.
  • Some don't like the idea of actually stacking Piranha blade and steggie helmet.
  • There are mixed feeling concerning PF, but it's hard to say whether that's LM player or others commenting (bias).
  • An increase on the price of cowboys shouldn't be on the actual model, but the mount. We don't want to nerf infantry characters.
  • A reduction of 5pts on swarms won't do much. People want it in core it seems.
  • I've had a long discussion about razordons. Apparently the Italian community can make them work. I've asked the guy to create a tactica on LO, but he wasn't interested. I've asked for a razordon army list. At any rate he believe that AP for razordons is too much.
  • One mentioned reducing skink cohort with 1pts.
  • I've also discussed with another that reducing point on blowpipes or increasing javelin cost by 1pts won't do anything. We'll have to rethink this, but how important is it? Personally I have 2 suggestion.
  • A) Give them a seperat unit entry (so we can essentially avoide the current "only 4 of the same core units" and have a skink cloud with mixed javelin/blowpipes.
  • B) Increase BS to 4 and increase their cost ~9pts? They still wouldn't interfere with camo skinks.
I think that's it for most part. I've made some long posts and gotten some long answers so it's somewhat hard to boil it down to just the essential stuff. One player, however, didn't quite think we'd need a buff to ripperdactyls nor add chief to the giant bolt thrower on the baby steg.

If people would like to comment on the following I'm more than happy to update the old list.
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Scalenex had some point adjustments, are these taken into account?
Regarding PF (To everyone), just make it work with supporting attacks, it's really not that big of a deal. That is how I play it, and it really isn't what is winning the combats.
Blowpipes could be an upgrade to the Skinks. Give the blowpipes quick to fire (which would still make sense, as it can't take much time to shot a blowpipe.) and make it so the unit can buy them like the Skink cohort can buy poisoned attacks in close combat.
 
I think that the two general rules of thumb when determining balance and pricing should be "is this option ever used?" and "would people want to try this option?"

I read the thread on the 9th age site, especially your conversation with the Italian player. A lot of his arguments seem to be "this is good, it must be nerfed" and "I wouldn't want to do that, so the option shouldn't be available at all" (PF and the chief on stegadon come to mind). I really think that he is looking at this the wrong way.

Why do people use javelins instead of blowpipes? Because the javelins are quick to fire and the shield gives a little extra defense, while the blowpipes are much harder to get value due to bad BS. The italian player thinks that because javelins are good, they should be more expensive than they are now. What he isn't asking is "is the javelin skirmisher broken at the current price point?" And the answer is that they are not. I have never heard people complain that skirmishers are overpowered. Annoying, sure. Good chaff, absolutely. Overpowered? No. Compare that to something like Doomfire Warlocks. Any time a unit of them is played I hear someone complain about how cheap they are compared to how powerful they are.

Regarding PF: It's caused enough confusion that it needs to be addressed one way or another. I usually play with PF being allowed from supporting attacks. It lends a nice cohesion to the unit, and eases dice rolls. It's not so strong that it has swung the game one way or another. With all the downsides (like the skink character needed to restrain from pursuit), there is no reason to prevent it from working from supporting attacks. It's one line added to the lizardmen section of the book. Not a big deal for something a lot of people do anyway.

Regarding the chief on a stegadon: the italian player says that it is a pointless change because no one wants to spend 500 hero points on a single bolt thrower. My response is this: "just because you don't want to take it, doesn't mean the option shouldn't exist". Give me a reason to want to take a chief on a stegadon. Maybe I want an accurate bolt thrower and am willing to skip scar-vets in order to take it. It may not be optimal, but the point of this entire exercise is to make the whole army viable in some form. Some units will always be more optimal, but that doesn't meant that small QoL changes shouldn't be made to make the other units more desirable.
 
@ASSASSIN_NR_1 Yeah I basically copy/pasted "his" list and added some thing. I don't think blowpipes should gain Quick To Fire, I'm personally more into BS4, but that's just me. The reasons are the following:

1) Camo skinks would essentially need QTF as well which isn't exactly needed.
2) QTF would streamline blowpipes to be more reminiscent of Javelins. I don't think that should be the case. BS4 would still come with all the downsides of blowpipes, but actually make them useable.

Just my opinion though. I do, however, agree with the upgrade part :p

@Trociu I completely agree.

@LawGnome In many ways I agree with what you're saying although we'd be talking 2 bolt throwing stegs at 500pts ^^ It's about creating choices and decent solutions that'll make people take some of the less used units. Currently the baby steg doesn't serve much of a purpose and sure the chief won't magically fix all problems, but it would be one way and one way to monitor usage of baby steg.

To the 3 of you - it's absolutely correct concerning ease of dice rolls concerning PF and something I'd like to point out once it's updated - for instance a CoR unit is very annoying to play with because:

1) separate roll for character (or use seperate dice lol).
2) separate roll for front rank saurus riders.
3) separate roll for mounts.
4) separate roll for second rank saurus riders.
5) separate roll for the new predatory fighter rolls.
6) Any rerolls (e.g. harmonic convergence) can be added on top of this.

Rerolling a PF attack is confusing and especially for your opponent. It's very hard for a player who isn't used to play against us to keep track of what's going on. At best you can cut the above down to 4 different rolls, but that's insane as is because the unit really isn't that big.
 
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