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8th Ed. Did the book do it for you?

Pulstar said:
“Core selection is limited.” Cheap chaff. Check. Speed. Check. Solid Defensive troops. Check. STR 7 attacks (something no other book can get in its core tax) Check. Cheap Poison attacks, both shooting and hand-to-hand, Check. They did more in three entries then I do all day…

...

“Troglodon” – I get this isn’t the kit anyone wanted. But the Scarnosaur is great and they needed to add something to fill out the duel kit. But it’s a good looking model has some use on the battle field. (There are plenty of things that don’t like the idea of a poison D3 wound attack). It’s fluff isn’t as far out of left field as the HE phoenixes were.
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There were a couple of points that I disagreed with, but these were the worst. Yes, you can take S7 in Core - no, you never will because Skroxigor simply aren't worthwhile. Now that you can attack the Kroxigor, anything that you'll want to use the S7 against will likely have the damage out put to reduce the Kroxigor to the point where they can't really retaliate (unless you catch something like Knights or Chariots on the charge... who are in trouble anyway due to static CR). Anything that can't kill the Kroxigor, and you have to ask why you are bringing them anyway when you could just run Saurus.

So your viable Core is two versions of chaff and infantry. Go look at some of the options available in Empire, Warriors, High Elves, Daemons, and yes - even Vampires - then try to tell me that our's isn't limited. What we have might do its job, like it always has, but it isn't particularly exciting. There's a reason most competitive gamers take 6-7 units of Skink Skirmishers and call it a day: that reason is still there.

The one good thing about the Trogolodon is its fluff. Sadly, its one of the worst designed units in the game. Its limited use, vulnerability, and poor mechanics in no way justifies the price tag attached to it, when you can look right across the page at a far superior Ancient Stegadon.
 
didnt play the game yet with new lizards but from mathhammer building list and reading forum i can say NO.
I dont know. you can take any forumer and player and he can write better book. alot of things are unclear, a lot of things is out of place, a lot of things are silly and etc.
I mean really? Skink priests can restrain sauruses but slann cant? i think that says it all about the writer. No research was made before writing the rules. It was just a nerf on kids whines thats all.
 
I have not received my book yet so my only knowledge so far is what I have read on the forum. Though at least GW finally agreed to ship a replacement package, though without the limited edition book which is a bummer.

The one thing I really don't like at the moment is the Predatory Fighter, and that is due to Fluff. Since they are spawned for one purpose it does not make sense that their "animal instincts" would take over. I think if any character within 6" could override the pursue it would be good, but right now fluff wise it make no sense at all.

It is also odd is that the Skroxigor rules go back to how they were in the previous editions. I.e. that the enemy can chose to hit them. Personally I feel this is a mistake, as it worked pretty well the way it was after the Errata add on after Ed. 8 was released. I think that with this at least we could have gotten back the "Skirmish Screen" rule from Ed. 6, since that would have significantly increased the strategic impact of using kroxigors. (Might be an idea if we compile a piece of text regarding this, and all of us send it over to GW, that way we might get a change in the Errata)

For the new models, I don't know, some of them are relative useless like the "Trogledon" but other than that they don't look too bad.

Looking forward to play a few games and test new strategies, as you never know there might be some hidden gems in the new units if they are used right.

With that said, I am a "competitive player" in the regards that I want to win, but I am no tournament player as where I live there are none hosted, so with that in mind most probably I face different armies than what is normal on the tournament level.
 
If you are reading this post as a "we should have gotten this" then you are reading it wrong.

What I AM saying is that what we DID get isnt worked out or thought through.
I fail to see how the demand of a whole-hearted product goes under wishful thinking as to me it is what should be expected...not wished for.

They want the Bastiladon to be a living fortress
It isnt..its a carrier, thus a poor design.

They want the Troglodon to be "among lustrias deadliest hunters"
It isnt...its a support unit....thus poor design.

that is two undeniably failed concepts, which means they arent worked through. When I say "failed opportunities" I am not talking about a coatl we will never have or the carnoriders...im talking about what these new units couldve been.



I would prefer you took your fingerpointing and kindergarten positivism elsewhere, because this is not a conversation of between grumpy kids that didnt get the toys they wished for, but for customers who arent satisfied to wait 6 years for a last minute product.[/quote]


Well said. Reading back over some of the posts I can now see where you are coming from and suppot what you are saying. Again though, I have yet to play a game with our new book. My apologies if I offended you or anyone else :).

EDIT: Oops, deleted the "quote" part. Top section is Phatmotha and the very last section is me. My bad.
 
I've come to the same conclusions as most here. My lists stay the same, if a bit stiffer and restricted in choices. My Saurus, stegs, cold ones, slann, salamanders, and chameleons are still going to be played, just like before, and I try to make room for rippers and Bastiladon, but nothing changed the way I play, nothing innovative, nothing screaming "play in a new way!" If anything, I'm even more crutched with my slann because he is still the only Mage worthwhile, skink options aren't going to fill his role. And he isn't a guarantee of a good magic phase anymore. I got off 3, maybe 4 spells against orcs with average rolls for winds. All game. The masters of magic of the world and I am struggling against a random Orc shaman because he has the same power as I do.

Trog added nothing, Bastiladon adds something cute but ultimately not a game changer, and rippers are expensive and situational, although effective when things do work right. Predatory fighter isn't even worded well enough to allow us to use it to full power. I'm playing the same codex with hamstrung (some merited) units. Don't get me started with Skrox.

That's what the problem is. High elves got more, and strong, core. We LOST core. Ogres and warriors of chaos are powerful. We aren't as strong, as expected, but we didnt get enough versatility to at least keep it as fun as it used to be. I'll see if more games change my attitude, but until there are FAQ's I'm just going to find something to do for a hobby.
 
Agree mostly with what Pulstar wrote. However, the disadvantage of predatory fighters kinda over shadows the 1/6 chance of us getting extra attacks in the front rank (unless they FAQ this). Just my opinion of course. Now if they changed it to where a Slann can also get them to restrain, that would be much better and make a hell of a lot more sense.

Also wanted to say that I agree with what Phatmotha said about the Troglodon being a "filler" in the carnosaur kit box. Don't add a filler just for the sake of adding it. Make it at least worth it or don't put it in there at all. Again, overall I am pleased with the new book and the necessary nerfs that clearly needed to be made. Just my two cents.
 
I agree with much of the good & bad new lizardmen stuff

I was disappointed that we didn't get sacred spawning back - they would have worked awesome with the 8th ed rules

Last time I checked, the slann were the most powereful beings in the warhammer world - I miss slann generations (miscast-proof) from 6th ed and the extra spell dice from 7th. They're kinda just like any ordinary lvl 4 wizard

The stegadon (ancient anyway) is meant to one of the largest monsters in lustria, so why isnt there an ancient steg on the giant-monster-base; it was usually (as people have mentioned) a centre piece of the army - along with the carnosaur, which makes my next point. The steg model itself is tiny compared to the new carno and trog.

The carnosaur seems underpowered compared to many many other monsters in other armies. "Carnosaurs are the top predato...known to attack even the mighty stegadons' what, a tiny steggy???
Back in the day it was THE CARNOSAUR not just any carnosaur the veteran could take. Sort of how armies are becoming overpowered by giving lots of units: multiple wounds, armour piercing (it seems that almost everything has armourpiercing, which used to be for extremely powerful untis), immune to this & that, just like the way the shield and/or light armour is useless...

Why are Saurus still I1?
I thought saurus were soldiers of the plan, so shouldn't they be that tiny bit better than man in combat?
I thought the basty would give +2I
I'm not too sure why the bastys are in special. An army with half the units being bastys doesn't make too much sense, with coldones and swarms yes. I think they should actually be rare units. TG should be core, but a little more expensive as they were in 6th ed

Sorry for this little rage, I started getting more worked up while typing

ON THE POSITIVE SIDE HOWEVER:

Teleporting units is cool and some other HM spells
I like how PF simulates how units claw and bite the enemy
Ld 5 skinks makes us more likely to take saurus, which are the soldiers of lizardmen (I find a large army of skinks a little embarrassing, unless I know my saurus become useless [and by useless I mean get shot up badly before combat])
The egg of quango is fun
Tetto'eko rules

I know I've gone on about the bad stuff, but there are lots of good things people like about the army. When 7th ed came out I flipped about the missing delicious spawnings and generations, but there were other tactics to deal with the 7th, and then 8th ed rules.
 
My opinion seems to chop and change. The only things that really annoy me though are:
-The EOTGs Arcane Configuration & Portent of Warding not stacking or combining in any way (which is just a personal preference really),
-The Bastilodon being so weak (its actually quite good imo, but I personally would have preferred it to be bigger for a price, to suit the model)
-The Carnosaur being so fragile (although it's damage output is crazy)
-Skrox units. Sure I have heard plenty of people saying "the indent is forced to choose who to direct the attacks towards" but that's a poet stupid argument. They get to choose whichever will give them the advantage, how is that better than them only having one choice?
-Everything about the Troglodon.

Overall though, it could have been a lot worse. Yes I prefer the old book, and it sucks that we didn't get something great, but it's not broken in any way and its fun. So no, it didn't do it for me, but it's usable and it has its moments.
 
For the mentioned "I think I can do better than they did"


this way please.
http://www.lustria-online.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12619
 
I agree mostly with what is said here. The new book doesnt do it for me overall but I am vacillating between loving and hating the Lizards at the moment.

I have been through several stages: denial, anger (rage quitting), confusion, and I think I am starting to accept the new book... though there is still plenty of confusion as to why they did certain things.

I am fine to some extent with the nerfs to the Slann and Salamanders, they had it coming but the Ld5 Skinks was just painful. My skinks regularly just run off the board now.

No level 3-4 skink high priest at a reasonable cost was disappointing as well if you didnt want to take a chunky slann which is overpriced mainly because we are forced to take him. For crying out loud, if you're going to make him our only good caster, at least let him control the troops who have PF. If he was optional (and we had a lvl3 for instance), then it's fine to leave him out but if you want any sort of good buffs you really need to take him, and most times you need the buffs. Loss of loremaster was a real bummer but he is a good swiss army knife now.

Giving skink priests beasts was good, but again, a level 1 or 2 casting a 10+ signature is painful. It does however mean we can get S5 T5 core troops. This also casts a shadow over the monsters. Why would you bother with a T5 monster when you can have other troops eg. salamanders or even TG or saurus that are similar? That and monsters being one-shotted with cannons. Our monsters will take damage vs bretonian peasants (who have halberds) which is a bit rubbish.

it's been said before and I agree:
Ripperdactyl... Ld5 with frenzy, seriously?
It would have been nice to have usable kroxigor.
I actually tried razordons too but they are still terrible
They removed all the cool magic items (keeping the cube). I was totally surprised about that as there were some very characteristic ones in there.
I too feel as though not a huge amount has changed and that many of the units are hamstrung. S5 T5 Saurus or TG (S6) seems to be the only real cool trick out of this.

Overall I'm disappointed that we didnt get anything game-changingly new - I think the frost phoesnix was mentioned - and they just nerfed stuff with a wholesale approach, I'm running with the adjustments to make it work but I learned a valuable lesson: Do NOT preorder models until you've seen the book.
 
I am somewhere in the middle on the book. The biggest thing I wanted in the book was some type of Monstrous Cav like Empire and Ogre Kingdoms got. We got Rippers and Terradons, but I was hoping for Saurus MC. I was not surprised by the nerf to the Slann. Frankly, our magic phases have been a little overpowered since 8th came out. The other thing I want is a plastic Saurus Hero on Cold One, but I can convert one out of bits.

On the other hand, it could have been a lot worse. We stayed pretty much the same and our lists didn't change much with most of what we were doing still working. As a 40K Tyranid player I know how bad it can be when an author who doesn't understand the army puts the codex together.

There are a number of things that I like. The Ripperdactyls and the Bastiladon will be good choices for us. I think the points drop on the Cold Ones will make them used more. The movement of the Carnosaur into both the Hero and Lord slots as well as being in plastic will make it more useful. The EotGs without having to take priests will be useful.

Mostly, we just have to adjust. GW giveth and GW taketh away. We adjust and move on, play another army, or quit the game. I'm going to adjust.

Padre
 
New army books are a bit of a love-hate relationship, but usually somehow adjust

I do miss the Ld test Blade of Realities though
- I always took it with potion of speed

Twice I've challenged an Empire General who was buffed up from here to the moon. In both games they had to take 5 ld tests
My opponent was very quiet when his General died

Another time I came against trolls, hehehe


Even taking the new Blade of Realities with potion of speed would be fantastic against challenges
 
The new blade of realities are awesome too...just too bad you cant take anything else....
 
I suppose hand of glory, wyssans, and any other buffs you pick up like from Light make BoR useful. You wound, they die. Unless its a regen monster, then start with some fire or better yet point that old blood somewhere else.
 
I felt really underwhelmed by the new book

Lore - Most of the history and lore is just a rehash of the old army books with OMG THE NEW DINOS WERE TOTALLY THERE ALL ALONG! thrown in to justify them. There was nothing particularly new or interesting. None of the special characters really had any dimension to them except Mazdamindi who is basically the only person (from the fluff) who is keeping the lizardmen as a race actually going. Skinks just turn into mindless barbarian sacrificers and Slann seem essentially a bit pathetic unless they're being attacked. Lazy.

Art A lot of good classic art but then again some of the old BAD art is still in (CoC look retarded in every form). Overall not too fussed

Modles
The Carnosaur is passable but has FAR too small a head.
Bastiladon has awful scales that just stop in a nice curved line...did noone look at an Ankylosaur. Feels very rushed.
Trogladon is BEAUTIFUL - guess where all the design time was spent?
Gok Ror (or whatever the name is) looks like a angry retarded gorilla.
New skink priest - don't particularly like. Looking a bit skeletal and OTT feathers.
Ripperdactyls - Horrible models and name
Terradons - LOVELY models but will need to model a bit more of a tail.

Rules
Seem very rushed.
Bastiladon not tanky enough (lol T5) and not buffy enough
Trogladon pathetic
Carnosaur too expensive for its survivabiltiy
EotG - WHY make it an all in one when each one is so poor? Make it a tactical choice and better options
Slann swap spells will only be of use in massive games. Should be allowed to cast spells priests know.
Oldblood dropped to I3 - REALLY? because I4 for the combat lord was too good? Not everyone is planning on taking a Bastiladon or High magic slann just to buff their oldbloods initiative

Special characters
I don't know what the hell they were smoking when they did Mazdamundi but I'm sure it's not legal
Kroak is good now
Gok Ror is good
Skinks are ok
Chakax still not good. Either buff him to be worth the cost or cut his price.

It seems like they tried to give us a lot of synergy but failed implementing it.

but my biggest gripe of all is NO SACRED SPAWNINGS!

Chaos get marks, vampires get bloodlines, ogres get names, brets get virtues, wood leves get kindreds AND sprites but we DONT get spawnings? Really upset by that.


However there is some good.

Krox S7 and cheaper
free spears
Sharpened horns on stegadons
flaming bolas on terradons
cheaper heroes
CoC better (although spears should be 2 pts)
TG cheaper
Razordons better

I think they should have taken another 6 months to do the book. Id have been happy to wait and spend my money on a REAL product. Not some mostly-rehashed, badly designed, somewhat poorly modeled range.

Then again maybe it's all done from a marketing point of view, not a players point of view. /cynical
 
No.

Nada.

Not in the least.

I love my Lizardmen. I spent two years converting pretty much every model in the army, painting them up in a completely different scheme to be mine. In the weeks before this book came out I was literally bouncing off the walls in anticipation. Our book was showing its age and starting to have real match-up issues at times, forcing me away from the lists that had originally drawn me to the army in the first place. I looked at the High Elf, Warrior, and to some extent even the Daemons books and dreamed of all manner of new units and differing army builds.

Then the rumors started, and I cried a little... I'm man enough to admit that... but I said they were just rumors. The High Elf book had all kinds of strange, incorrect rumors.

Then the book came and I really debated spending $50 on it. But when I looked at my little plastic minions I felt I owed it to them. So I went and bought my book and tried to not take any preconceived notions in with me. The nerd rage that followed was something to behold. To all of those that like the book, I do not wish to be offensive, so you might want to look away now...

...this book is terrible. Not in power level, though its not particularly good there either, but in just the over all quality. None of the new things are particularly interesting, or their just plain terrible on the table.

The models are meh in the extreme. They're not all terrible, but none of them are beautiful either.

The rules are vague and not all that well thought out. Confabulation under the Slann was a waste of space on the page unless you're constantly playing 3k games, and not defining the relation between Predatory Fighters and Supporting Attacks is pathetic. There are so many things in the book that are almost good, almost where they could be, that is hurts.

Worst of all though is that the book is dull. There's no real new fluff, indeed we lost the language page. There are few, if any, truly new builds available. Bad match ups remain from the old book, further limiting you in play styles. The good was nerfed, the bad is still bad, and every time I try to find something here to get really excited about this book comes up short.

I wonder if I can convert them all into a dragon themed army of something...



Pyre
 
To be honest, it could have been alot worse. At least we didn't get screwed over as hard as TK. TK is near unplayable now compared to some other books.

I know that the lists will mostly stay the same, but we can always experiment right? I'm actually quite tempted to squeeze 6xKrox in my lists somehow, just to see how it goes. We are just alot more buff reliant than before, with a nerfed magic phase.

And about the carnosaur being pretty weak defense wise, can't we use Salamanders/Razordons to potentially block cannon shots (being the biggest threat out there)? Ofc stonethrowers and arp shooting/magic missiles will still hurt it, but its less likely to be oneshotted by a cannon.

I'll definatly try some lists and play more games before I start thinking about shelving the army. I've only played one with the new book, where the bastiladon did not disappoint! My opponent saw the "possibility" of the bound spell hurting things as low, while it took out 15 out of 30 white lions. Not bad for a 150point model (but I do realise it might have done practically nothing). I feel that if I only use a single pd for it, its not that big of a loss if it fails. I can usually channel the dice for that bound spell anyways.

Slann magic is still potent, but I do expect us to be casting less. Its just that it is pretty versatile, being able to counter different lists with the same build. And my slann didn't get any more expensive points wise. Sure base cost is higher, but the disciplines are cheaper and I tend not to fill my slann up with all of the magic allowance.

Hell as I am writing this im thinking of a lizzie MSU army, core : skrox units with 1 krox. Fill it up with some scarvet cowboys, a big block of krox, etc etc.

Perhaps we will think that the book isnt half bad after a bunch of games, lets say after 2 months or so.
 
Haemoglobin said:
To be honest, it could have been alot worse. At least we didn't get screwed over as hard as TK. TK is near unplayable now compared to some other books.
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I look at the Tomb King book as a noble failure. They added a lot of really great new models and rules, and some truly fun and interesting game mechanics; unfortunately, they didn't add the functionality to make it work on the table. At least it seemed like they put forth some solid effort.

Our new release may not be the weakest book of 8th edition, but it's certainly the most insipid.
 
Could this be why Vettock decided to print the batrep against TK in the White Dwarf?

Maybe to make them look better or to make LM look better or both? ;)
 
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