Tutorial Dealing with Dark Elves

[olderplayer]

One comment. Until FAQ, there will be an open debate as to whether the death hag and the two crew on the cauldron can use their extra hand weapon since, per the BRB, two hand weapons are not allowed for models on mounts.

This is the rest of my comments with discussion of mages, lore choices and magic items in their new book.

Lores:
Dark Magic is a good supporting lore but not likely to be a primary lore. Dark Elf generals are drooling over life because the ability to regenerate and recover wounds, avoid miscasts consequences with sac dagger. They also like lore of beasts to address the low T and S of dark elf infantry and for amber spear. Still, you are likely to see lvl 4's taking death and shadow, with death having good synergy with dark magic now.

A lvl 2 with dark magic for example may take tome of furion to auto choose one spell and roll for the other. Which dark magic spelll is taken with the tome depends on the match up and your army build.
I lot of dark elves like the boosted Word of Pain (12+ but really 11+ with the +1 dark mage boost) that reduces WS, BS, I and S by D3. This ensures re-rolls to hit with ASF and increases the hit rate and reduces the likelihood of being hit if WS is reduced to 1.
Shroud of Despair is popular against armies that are not ITP. It causes all enemy units within 12" of the mage to ignore the Hold Your Ground and Inpiring Presence special rules (this spell is potentially very effective against monsters and skinks in a LM army but could hurt even saurus and TG units.
Soul Stealer is popular against lower T and/or high AS units. It does an S2 with no AS hit to each model touched by a small template scattering D6" and the mage gains a wound for every unsaved wound caused by the spell up to a max of 10 wqounds on the mage (likely to be chosen against larger skink units and armies but not when running saurus and similarly tough models).
Occasionally you may see black horror being cast which is a vortex template spell which causes an S test for each model touched/passed over the the template with no save for the model other than a ward save, this means a multiwound models will die on a single failed S test unless they have a ward save.
Black hooror is most likely to be cast by a mage able to get close to and possibly on the flank of a unit or group of units, such as a dark mage on a dark steed in a unit of warlocks or dark riders. The ability to cast the boosted Word of Pain to reduce S, or an Enfeeble with a lvl 4 shadow mage, or the war locks casting soulblight to reduce S and T by 1 are all ways to increase the effectiveness of black horror vortex when a good winds of magic roll comes up and/or a lvl 4 carries the sac dagger to ensure her spells get off. The black horror vortex will take out 2/3's of the skinks and 1/3 of saurus and TG models touched without a prior S hex.
Shourd of Despair with doom and darkness in lore of death is another combo to look out for with a dark magic lvl 2 and a death lvl 4.
Bladewind (effectively 8+ to cast within 24") is an issue for skinks because every model in the unit takes a WS test and if failed, suffers an S4 AP hit. Bladewind cast on a unit of 10 chameleon skinks, skink cohorts, or skink skirmishers will kill 5/9s of the models, or 5.55 out of ten on average. Also, the lore attribute will take down additional skinks with 2D6 S1 AP additional hits on the unit given skinks are T2. This spell will similarly be effective/wprth casting on saurus hordes and even larger TG units, killing on average slightly more than one out of five saurus models in the entire unit because S4 Ap is -2 to AS. Considering the casting cost, this is a high value spell. against lizardmen.

Magic Items to look out for:
Cloak of Twilight as mentioned gives 3++ to shooting and spells and KB and D3 wounds on first round of combat and is an enchanted item.
Black Dragon Egg: is an enchanted item that gives the model S6 and T6 and a S2 breath weapon with no armour saves for one use only.
Black Amulet: Talisman gives 4++ ward and if the ward save is successful it directs an autowound with no armour save on the opposing model if in a challenge.
Ring of Hotek: Talisman, gives MR3 and all spells cast by opposing mages targetting any units within 6" of the bearer suffer miscasts (no IF) on any double 1's in addition to the normal double 6's IF and miscast. This basically doubles the risk of miscasts whenever you target a unit within 6" of the ring., including when a mage casts an augment.
Sacrificial Dagger: is basically the same as before except dark mages lost cheaper models to sacrifice and ia sacrifice is only successful if the bearer rolls a 4+ on a D6, but may continue to attempt until successful once per casting attempt. With dark elf models being more expensive and the dagger being less predictable and working half the time, mages will use this item less than before and a lot more judiciously but it still will be used.
Tome of Furion: allows the bearer/mage to choose one dark magic spell but must roll for the remaining spells if greater than lvl 1.

 

[walach]

One question; can the cauldron make way? I played against my mate, and we weren't sure. Not that it makes masses of difference either way (though I did panic when my cowboy took a wound in round 1!)

Ultimately after several rounds chipping away with the scar vet, I charged with saurus (front) and krox (in the flank) and smashed the rest of the unit in 1 round. I had miasmed their WS to 2 which helped, but even so I was surprised given the net-hype about this unit.

Master on peg w/cloak was more of a problem, killed my steg in 1 round on the charge which was most disappointing - any thoughts on how to avoid?

 

[olderplayer]

The cauldron can only make way if not in the unit when charging and probably cannot otherwise siince a cauldron is a chariot and should not be able to slide over. The AB is pretty clear that the cauldron must be in the center of the unit (same number of rank and file models on each side if in a unit that has an even number of R&F files and one difference if odd number of files after fitting the cauldron in the unit. The cauldron is 60mm wide, so it should be able to target a lot of models unless one is in a larger unit and off center. In challenges, given the BRB rules, the model challenging the death hag or acceptiing the challengedby the death hag would move over if able. If neither model can move into b2b, then asume the challenge ifs fought on the side somehow.

High armour saves are a problem for the witch elf unit and that is a reason executioners will typically be run in tandem with witches to cut through higher AS units and protect the witches. Sitll, your report doesn't sound right unless the witch elf+cauldron unit was smaller than optimal and your Krox and saurus units were effectively larger (6 Krox on the flank nd a saurus horde with spears might do it especially with a hard to kill sac vet but the Krox should lose at least one model and lose the ability to break witch elf ranks.).
1. A scar vet by itself should not be able to break frenzy (not enough attacks for the hits to translate into unsaved wounds with ward saves and wiitches should have static combat res of 4 plus music to break ties). The witches get to re-roll to hit with ASF (even if miasma goes off) and re-roll to wound with cauldron. A lot of hits will be autowounding with poison. That will be a lot of armour saves to have to roll on a 2 wound model. Occasionally, one or two will fail.
2. Against the saurus and Krox, the wiitches will re-roll to hit with ASF and I (even if missma goes off) and one third of hits will autowound and 55.56% on the non-poison hits will wound with a re-roll. That will be a lot of armour saves to have to roll on 4+ AS models.
3. Unless the Krox unit is six models 3 wide and 2 deepp, charging Krox into a flank gives up a lot of attacks to the witches on that flank with 3 attacks each and two wtitches per Krox if the witch elf unit is larger.
4. Similarly, saurus are 25mm against the 20mm wide base of witches except the cauldron.
5. While at WS2, you will hit on 3's and wound on 3's with saurus and 2's with Krox, the witches will get a 5+ ward save and be fighiting units that should be depleted by the time they get to attack.

What were the unit sizes, witches vs scar vet, saurus and Krox? Also, how does the saurus unit fit in the front with the scar vet already in combat. One strategy is to make the scar vet fight the and kill the death hag in a challenge to force it to "waste" attacks on a model that yields no VPs until you kill its mount. Surprised you smashed that unit unless it was pretty small in size, which is non-optimal. If playing at 2400 or 2500, a cauldron should be run with most of core spent on witches (at least 35 total plus full command) and with a razor standard and perhaps an augment on the unit or two given a good lvl 4 mage.

 

[walach]

WE were in horde, I think 30 witches + cauldron to start with, not 100%.

I charged with the scar vet to the left of centre to avoid the cauldron. The saurus were 25 in 5x5, krox were 6 in 3x2.

As I said, i'd killed off a fair few witches before the saurus/krox charge, so there was probably only ~20 left.

He had the razor standard on a big unit of black guard, which is where his wizards were (had died by the time we did the saurus/krox charge)


It was basically an experiment for me to see if it was worth doing in a tournament game. Even though I was so successful this time, it hasn't really convinced me that doing it again would be a good idea.

Someone on here had already done the maths for witches vs. scar vet w/1+ re-rollable, and showed you only take like 0.2 wounds per combat round, so you should be ok to last several rounds. Plus I healed the wound back he did take with the life attribute, which I loved

 

[Lizardmatt]

WE were in horde, I think 30 witches + cauldron to start with, not 100%.

I charged with the scar vet to the left of centre to avoid the cauldron. The saurus were 25 in 5x5, krox were 6 in 3x2.

As I said, i'd killed off a fair few witches before the saurus/krox charge, so there was probably only ~20 left.

He had the razor standard on a big unit of black guard, which is where his wizards were (had died by the time we did the saurus/krox charge)


It was basically an experiment for me to see if it was worth doing in a tournament game. Even though I was so successful this time, it hasn't really convinced me that doing it again would be a good idea.

Someone on here had already done the maths for witches vs. scar vet w/1+ re-rollable, and showed you only take like 0.2 wounds per combat round, so you should be ok to last several rounds. Plus I healed the wound back he did take with the life attribute, which I loved

All that tells us is that the dark elf players need to start throwing an assassin into their witch stars.
Assassin with obsidian blade + manbane is brutal. Hits on 3+ with re-roll, wounds on 4+ with re-roll, no armor save. Against hard targets like skullcrushers, the assassin is good for 3 wounds with no armor save.

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

All that tells us is that the dark elf players need to start throwing an assassin into their witch stars.
Assassin with obsidian blade + manbane is brutal. Hits on 3+ with re-roll, wounds on 4+ with re-roll, no armor save. Against hard targets like skullcrushers, the assassin is good for 3 wounds with no armor save.

That would be a deadly combo indeed. Although that unit is getting to be awfully expensive at this point. Witches + Cauldron + Assassin = big points! Deadly, no doubt, but still extremely expensive and still very vulnerable to shooting, spells etc.

 

[Lizardmatt]

All that tells us is that the dark elf players need to start throwing an assassin into their witch stars.
Assassin with obsidian blade + manbane is brutal. Hits on 3+ with re-roll, wounds on 4+ with re-roll, no armor save. Against hard targets like skullcrushers, the assassin is good for 3 wounds with no armor save.

That would be a deadly combo indeed. Although that unit is getting to be awfully expensive at this point. Witches + Cauldron + Assassin = big points! Deadly, no doubt, but still extremely expensive and still very vulnerable to shooting, spells etc.

5+ ward and MR1 protects units pretty well. If you're already going to dump ~600 to 700 points into a single unit, dumping another 160 to avoid it being cheaply neutralized is a good idea.

-Matt

 

[NIGHTBRINGER]

All that tells us is that the dark elf players need to start throwing an assassin into their witch stars.
Assassin with obsidian blade + manbane is brutal. Hits on 3+ with re-roll, wounds on 4+ with re-roll, no armor save. Against hard targets like skullcrushers, the assassin is good for 3 wounds with no armor save.

That would be a deadly combo indeed. Although that unit is getting to be awfully expensive at this point. Witches + Cauldron + Assassin = big points! Deadly, no doubt, but still extremely expensive and still very vulnerable to shooting, spells etc.

5+ ward and MR1 protects units pretty well. If you're already going to dump ~600 to 700 points into a single unit, dumping another 160 to avoid it being cheaply neutralized is a good idea.

-Matt

True, but if that frenzied unit is diverted off course, it is a major blow at such a huge points cost. The other question is what are the odds that that the assassin kills the Oldblood before the Oldblood kills the assassin. I know my Tzeentch 3+ reroll 1's ward save Lord or Hero would wipe the floor with the assassin. Not sure about the oldblood though.

 

[olderplayer]

Thanks Walach. It makes total sense what happened once you describe it. If he lost a character unit with black guard, then you'd probably already won. You devoted a lot of points (300 in Krox, probably almost 300 points in saurus and 140 points in a scar vet) to a unit worth significantly less (360 in witches plus 275 in death hag+cauldron) plus got a flank and a charge, so, in that setup, you should win. I suspected you had to have run 6 Krox in the flank, with him only having 3 or 4 ranks left giving fewer attacks on the Krox before the Krox do their damage. BTW, a horde with cauldron is seven witches plus cauldron because the cauldron counts as a character mount and fits within the profile with its 60mm x 100mm base it takes the place of 15 witches per the BRB, and your opponent should have played it that way. The optimal horde unit is a minimum of 35 witches with full command and razor standard for 5 ranks. Another was to run it is to reform to increase ranks and run deep to max steadfast.

If you had fewer Krox (like 3) and he had more witches (4 ranks plus 1 or more in the fifth rank with 5 witches facing the Krox on the flank for 15 attacks directed on the Krox), then even at WS2 he cuts down at least one Krox (4.0 unsaved wounds on average due to re-roll to hit with poison and re-roll to wound from the cauldron) before the Krox get to hit he takes only 3.3 unsaved wounds from them with the cauldron ward save. He should generally win CR against the saurus, even with spears on saurus, by a good margin if he runs a horde formation and by more than enough to overcome the ACR of the scar vet to win combat and put you units in trouble even with the flank and charge bonus.

Front on and matching up, on an equivalent points basis (35 witches with FC + cauldron against 33 saurus with FC, 3 Krox and 1 scar vet) and without the WS2 on witches, he wins by enough on average that your units are breaking unless steadfast because 2+ Krox die before getting to hit (re-roll to hit+poison+re-roll to wound, depending on the footprints he gets 3 files of witches and the two cauldron crew on the Krox plus death hag) and kills a lot of saurus with the remaining witch elf files (4 files is 5 attacks per file in horde).

The 30 witches is less han optimal. Really should have at least 35 witches + full command + razor standard for five ranks if you are going to run a cauldron. The cauldron ward save and re-roll to hit benefits increase with the size of the unit. Go big or go home with the cauldron to get the most value from it. Also, since the cauldron can take a lot of wounds, one strategy is to challenge the scar vet with a champion and then with the death hag on the cauldron to force the scar vet to the center and delay the rate of loss of models in the unit. This will increase the chance of getting the scar vet to take break tests, and potentially limit the saurus unit to charging one side or the other of the unit and having a file or two of saurus out of combat due to their larger base size. Killing the death hag gives up no VPs until the cauldron is killed (T6 and 4+ ward takes time; unless the death hag is the BSB )and with razor banner, she has a chance before dying to get a wound or two through the armour of the scar vet with poison and S4 and re-roll to hit and wound. One of the reasons for a lvl 4 life wizard with sac dagger behind the witches is to counter your type of build because it can restore wounds on the death hag or cauldron as long as they remain alive and can hope to get regrowth to keep the unit size up for ranks and max attacks.


The assassin is interesting because he does not get potentially attacked by witches and the re-roll to hit with poison and re-roll to wound + another poison makes him very effective in some situations. But he dies so easily and gives up VPs accordingly. The problem with the new assassin is that he cannot stack gifts of khaine anymore and only gets one poison upgrade. KB kind of conflicts with poisoned attacks and he no longer has an option like +D3 attacks and +1S. Obsidian blade is an interesting option with manbane but is risky in that two of the three attacks must hit and successfully wound and the target must not have a ward save. It is ideal for dealing with a scar vet with a high AS at S4 with +1 to wound with posion manbane it is just enough to ensure success in killing the scar vet a bit more than half the time. The assassin with with that set up will cost a bit more than the scar vet and will die quickly against a rank and file unit with T3 and only a 6+ ward in the witch elf unit.

 

[walach]

Yeah, I figured i'd won already, as I said, it was more an experiment to see what i'd do if the situation arose in a tournament game.

As it was, with 6 krox in the flank, he only had 3 to fight back at this point, plus he rolled really bad, pretty sure I took 0 wounds... Think the saurus were really only there to break steadfast in the end.

More witches + assassin sounds really nasty! Not 100% on the razor standard - is -1AS on a S3 unit really that useful? Certainly seemed nasty on the BG where he had it.

One thing which sort of surprised both of us, was that the cauldron no longer confers stubborn. So while hard to manage, a properly buffed flank charge will most likely delete the whole unit (I think?).

 

[olderplayer]

One "trick" is, if you know you are going to get hit in the flank like that and face a ranked unit in the front then combat reform to go as deep as possible when in combat just with the scar vet. The combat reform, per the FAQ is the one time you can effectively slide units sideways in the formation by changing their files. and long as you do not reduce the models in combat with the scar vet. If the scar vet was challenged by the death hag (risky if the DH is BSB but smart if not), the scar vet would have to go to the center touching the cauldron and that would allow the witches to reduce to 6 wide (3 witches plus the cauldron) and that would also reduce the nnumber of saurus that will get into combat with the witches.

Also, while BG are nasty, re-rolling to wound with two attacks each and stubborn, if they get across the table and in combat, against a deep and ranked unit they will die just as fast as executioners and will be shot up just as easily (or even more in the case of dwellers) as execs when hit with direct damages and magic missiles and shooting attacks. Since BG cost more and only give two attacks in the front rank, execs are probably the better option to pair with witches unless the BG unit is close enough to get the re-roll to wound of the cauldron. Also, execs get more benefit from murderous prowess in that they often roll to wound on 2's and get to re-roll all the failures to wound and have KB on rolls of 6's to wound and will cut through high armour saves a lot more. When you already have witches with 5+ ward and effectively re-roll to hit and re-roll to wound, execs give more punch and synergy with S6 and KB over BG with S4 and that allows that razor banner to go on the witches (where the banner works well in that it increases unsaved wounds against most armour save units unless the models have a 1+ AS; the DH increases its ability to unsaved wound with the razor standard with S4 and AP). Since the halberds can "count as" or proxy at great weapons, you can play the BG models as execs if clearly indicated as such.

 

[bhuddiver]

In my group I have an issue with Executioners + Cauldron. With my very limited amount of models all I can really do is skink attack it until I get into melee with either Saurs block (normally 5 wide, full command, scar vet bsb w/AoD and great weapon). I just hope they live long enough for the rest of my army (said skinks, Camo Sknks, Old Blood, CoR) to kill everything and then go fight them.

Should I try the solo OB trick? And if so what build? Maybe CO, Glittering Scales, Fencers Blades, Crown of Command?. My statistics are terrible but we will assume I get flank charge on a 4 deep group. Average comes to wounding .67 each round? Did I do that right?

 

[DrMad]

In my group I have an issue with Executioners + Cauldron. With my very limited amount of models all I can really do is skink attack it until I get into melee with either Saurs block (normally 5 wide, full command, scar vet bsb w/AoD and great weapon). I just hope they live long enough for the rest of my army (said skinks, Camo Sknks, Old Blood, CoR) to kill everything and then go fight them.

Should I try the solo OB trick? And if so what build? Maybe CO, Glittering Scales, Fencers Blades, Crown of Command?. My statistics are terrible but we will assume I get flank charge on a 4 deep group. Average comes to wounding .67 each round? Did I do that right?

Actually the 3 btb Executioners (in the flank) do .89 wounds of which 1/4 is killing blow (your chance to get killed outright here is higher than 1 in 5). Of the other 3/4 you save some with your 5+.
That's 0.225 killing blows and 0.45 'regular' wounds.

And he might turn to face which will double his chance for killing blow.

 

[bhuddiver]

@DrMad So probably only use an OB to hold up the unit for a turn, before charging it with another unit

 

[DrMad]

You can always challenge to try avoid to many killing blow attacks. And to hold up the executioners the fencers blades do nothing but give you an additional attack. (WS5 against WS10 hits on 4s). So maybe throw in the 4++ talisman in case he rolls a 6 to wound. And if you get a hex on his unit, that helps as well, especially Curse of the Midnight Wind is golden here! Rerolling 6s for him to avoid killing blows