AoS Command, Constellation & Carno questions

[Just A Skink]

Hi all,
I recently played a (relatively) social distanced battle. It was my first experience playing Seraphon with the new battletome. There seems like LOTS of newish stuff to remember, lol. I have a few questions, to see if I did this attack sequence correctly.

I was using Koatl's Claw Constellation. I charged a unit of 5 Ogors with my (hurt but not bracketed) Oldblood on Carnosaur. I had a Scar-Vet use his "exploding 6's" command ability on the general.

-I attacked with the Eviscerating Blade and rolled two 6's. Am I correct that those two 6's dealt 4 mortal wounds (artifact) and then turned into 6 total attacks (two regular attacks, two additional from Scar-Vet command, and two additional from Celestite Weapon ability)?

-I missed with the Carno's claws.

-I attacked with the Carno's Massive Jaws. Am I correct that I rolled 4 Massive Jaw attacks with +2 to Hit / +3 to Wound, each with 5 DAMAGE (+1 to Hit from Koatl charging ability, +1 to Hit with Massive Jaws from "Pinned Down" Carno ability vs. targets with Wounds of 7 or less, and +1 Attacks with jaw attacks from coalesced ability)?

Anyway, that's what I did. 15 damage alone from the unsaved Massive Jaw attacks. I wiped that unit with my one model, and it sort of surprised us both. There were complaints of it being broken. I confess, I was even feeling a little of that. 5 damage from each bite seems... ouch!

 

[Blighboy]

Regarding the jaws, that should be correct.

The jaws decay linearly with damage and the carnosaur isn't super durable so as long as your opponent hits him first they can minimize the damage.

I'm less certain about the weapon situation. Rules as written, I don't think the ability and command ability should stack. They turn each hit into two hits, they don't add additional hits. If anyone has clarification on that I'd be interested to hear it.

 

[Erta Wanderer]

Hi all,
I recently played a (relatively) social distanced battle. It was my first experience playing Seraphon with the new battletome. There seems like LOTS of newish stuff to remember, lol. I have a few questions, to see if I did this attack sequence correctly.

I was using Koatl's Claw Constellation. I charged a unit of 5 Ogors with my (hurt but not bracketed) Oldblood on Carnosaur. I had a Scar-Vet use his "exploding 6's" command ability on the general.

-I attacked with the Eviscerating Blade and rolled two 6's. Am I correct that those two 6's dealt 4 mortal wounds (artifact) and then turned into 6 total attacks (two regular attacks, two additional from Scar-Vet command, and two additional from Celestite Weapon ability)?

yep both abilities come into play and you end up with 6 wound rolls

-I missed with the Carno's claws.

-I attacked with the Carno's Massive Jaws. Am I correct that I rolled 4 Massive Jaw attacks with +2 to Hit / +3 to Wound, each with 5 DAMAGE (+1 to Hit from Koatl charging ability, +1 to Hit with Massive Jaws from "Pinned Down" Carno ability vs. targets with Wounds of 7 or less, and +1 Attacks with jaw attacks from coalesced ability)?

Anyway, that's what I did. 15 damage alone from the unsaved Massive Jaw attacks. I wiped that unit with my one model, and it sort of surprised us both. There were complaints of it being broken. I confess, I was even feeling a little of that. 5 damage from each bite seems... ouch!

you got all that right carnasuar damage is good but by no means broken he does about as much damage as any other buffed monster but has problems with moving and surviving long enough to use said damage

 

[Nart]

There were complaints of it being broken.

Not at all. There are way more busted things in AoS than a carnosaur. Like, way more.

 

[Just A Skink]

Thanks for the replies!

@Blighboy, yes, my friend thought the same about the weapon attacks. I won't lie that it seemed a little questionable at first glance, but they are from different abilities, even if they do the same thing. I thought I had read something on here about them stacking, so that's how I played it.

@Erta Wanderer and @Nart. I should have added that the question raised about the jaws (despite my buddy just being upset about the damage) was the wording of Pinned Down. It says "if the target has a Wounds characteristic of 7 or less" as opposed to "the unit". We wondered if this was supposed to be a rule to affect minor single characters (i.e. targets) as opposed to units?

 

[Erta Wanderer]

@Erta Wanderer and @Nart. I should have added that the question raised about the jaws (despite my buddy just being upset about the damage) was the wording of Pinned Down. It says "if the target has a Wounds characteristic of 7 or less" as opposed to "the unit". We wondered if this was supposed to be a rule to affect minor single characters (i.e. targets) as opposed to units?

it's talking about models in the unit if the model has 7 or less wounds (so most troops and a few foot heros) then it applies making him a good chaff clearer

 

[Nart]

as opposed to "the unit"

Units doesn't have wound characteristics, only models have.

 

[Putzfrau]

I'd lean towards both applying to the spears but I think there's an argument against. Both rules state "counts as 2 hits." When a six is rolled it then becomes 2 hits, satisfying the requirement for both.

Had something similar ever been faqd?

 

[VVolfsong]

I'd lean towards both applying to the spears but I think there's an argument against. Both rules state "counts as 2 hits." When a six is rolled it then becomes 2 hits, satisfying the requirement for both.

Had something similar ever been faqd?

The designers' commentary on the core rules from December last year has an example that is close.

Q: Sometimes a dice roll will trigger an effect. For example, a weapon might have a rule that says a hit roll of 6 causes two hits on the target instead of 1. What happens if another effect applies to the same roll? For example, the weapon from the previous example might have a rule that says it inflicts D6 mortal wounds on a hit roll of 6 and the attack sequence ends – would I get to inflict two hits that each inflicted D6 mortal wounds?
A: When a dice roll triggers more than one effect, each effect is triggered once. For this example, this means that the hit roll would cause two hits, but only one of the hits would inflict D6 mortal wounds (you would carry out the rest of the attack procedure for the other hit normally).​

Since they are different abilities they should each trigger once, meaning that every rolled 6 will reward you with three hits in this case. Or at least, that is my interpretation.

 

[Nart]

The designers' commentary on the core rules from December last year has an example that is close.

Seems fair. Also reminds me about our old FAQ on Scar-Veteran's CA, which triggered bonus roll as much times, as it was used.

 

[Putzfrau]

The designers' commentary on the core rules from December last year has an example that is close.

Q: Sometimes a dice roll will trigger an effect. For example, a weapon might have a rule that says a hit roll of 6 causes two hits on the target instead of 1. What happens if another effect applies to the same roll? For example, the weapon from the previous example might have a rule that says it inflicts D6 mortal wounds on a hit roll of 6 and the attack sequence ends – would I get to inflict two hits that each inflicted D6 mortal wounds?
A: When a dice roll triggers more than one effect, each effect is triggered once. For this example, this means that the hit roll would cause two hits, but only one of the hits would inflict D6 mortal wounds (you would carry out the rest of the attack procedure for the other hit normally).​

Since they are different abilities they should each trigger once, meaning that every rolled 6 will reward you with three hits in this case. Or at least, that is my interpretation.

I definitely think it gives some ammunition for anyone trying to argue against. Nice find!

 

[Imrahil]

"if the target has a Wounds characteristic of 7 or less" as opposed to "the unit".

If the unit is the target then it is correct.
I played with the Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur yesterday and was wondering something else about this rule:

It says "has a Wound characteristic" does this mean the wounds as listed on the Warscroll or the total of wounds that the model has in battle at the moment of the attack?
For instance against a Treelord (12 Wounds):
a) it will never effect him because he is a 12 wound model.
or b) it will not have effect unless he suffers 5 wounds first.

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Putzfrau]

The wounds on the warscroll.

 

[Just A Skink]

If the unit is the target then it is correct.
I played with the Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur yesterday and was wondering something else about this rule:

It says "has a Wound characteristic" does this mean the wounds as listed on the Warscroll or the total of wounds that the model has in battle at the moment of the attack?
For instance against a Treelord (12 Wounds):
a) it will never effect him because he is a 12 wound model.
or b) it will not have effect unless he suffers 5 wounds first.

Grrr, Imrahil

I always thought it meant the wound characteristic on the warscroll and NOT the current wound level of a model. But, I'm sure someone better will chime in.

 

[Nart]

When game referes to wounds the model has in the current state, it referes to "allocated wounds" or "wounds left". Characteristics is set to number on warscroll.

 

[Asvic]

If the unit is the target then it is correct.
I played with the Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur yesterday and was wondering something else about this rule:

It says "has a Wound characteristic" does this mean the wounds as listed on the Warscroll or the total of wounds that the model has in battle at the moment of the attack?
For instance against a Treelord (12 Wounds):
a) it will never effect him because he is a 12 wound model.
or b) it will not have effect unless he suffers 5 wounds first.

Grrr, Imrahil

Unless something specifically MODIFIES wounds characteristic (suffered wounds do not) you should always use the warscroll "as it is".

I'd lean towards both applying to the spears but I think there's an argument against. Both rules state "counts as 2 hits." When a six is rolled it then becomes 2 hits, satisfying the requirement for both.

Had something similar ever been faqd?

There is no clear answer in AoS FAQ, I think, but there is some info in 40k:

Q: Some abilities can cause extra hits or wounds on a specific roll e.g. ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 2 hits instead of 1’ and ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit on the target’. Are these abilities cumulative? A: It depends on the exact wording of the rule in question. Rules that ‘score 2 (or more) hits instead of 1’ are not cumulative. Rules that ‘score 1 (or more) additional hits’ are cumulative. Here are some examples to show how these rules interact:
1. If a model is affected by two different rules that say that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits instead of 1’ then a hit roll of 6 will still only result in 2 hits being scored against the target unit.
2. If a model is affected by two different rules that say that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 1 additional hit‘ on the target, then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3 hits being scored against the target unit.
3. If a model is affected by two different rules, one that says that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits instead of 1’ and one that says that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 1 additional hit‘ against the target, then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3 hits being scored against the target unit.

Not that you should absolutely use it as it's 40k, but it can help a little bit.

 

[ILKAIN]

Unless something specifically MODIFIES wounds characteristic (suffered wounds do not) you should always use the warscroll "as it is".


There is no clear answer in AoS FAQ, I think, but there is some info in 40k:

Q: Some abilities can cause extra hits or wounds on a specific roll e.g. ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 2 hits instead of 1’ and ‘Each hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit on the target’. Are these abilities cumulative? A: It depends on the exact wording of the rule in question. Rules that ‘score 2 (or more) hits instead of 1’ are not cumulative. Rules that ‘score 1 (or more) additional hits’ are cumulative. Here are some examples to show how these rules interact:
1. If a model is affected by two different rules that say that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits instead of 1’ then a hit roll of 6 will still only result in 2 hits being scored against the target unit.
2. If a model is affected by two different rules that say that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 1 additional hit‘ on the target, then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3 hits being scored against the target unit.
3. If a model is affected by two different rules, one that says that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 2 hits instead of 1’ and one that says that on a hit roll of 6 that attack ‘scores 1 additional hit‘ against the target, then a hit roll of 6 will result in 3 hits being scored against the target unit.

Not that you should absolutely use it as it's 40k, but it can help a little bit.

I cant link because of work internet filters, but there is an actual answer in the designers commentary of AOS. they WIL NOT be multiplicative, meaning ability one triggers and now 1 = 2 then ability 2 triggers and 2 = 4 hits, but they WILL be additive, meaning: original attack rolls 6, ability one looks at the original hit and makes it 2 hits, the second of which now has its own attack sequence, and then ability 2 looks at the original hit of 6 and makes it 2, the second of which now has it's own attack sequence, making each 1 hit into 3 separate attack sequences starting at the roll to wound part of the sequence.

 

[Krissey]

If the unit is the target then it is correct.
I played with the Scar-Veteran on Carnosaur yesterday and was wondering something else about this rule:

It says "has a Wound characteristic" does this mean the wounds as listed on the Warscroll or the total of wounds that the model has in battle at the moment of the attack?
For instance against a Treelord (12 Wounds):
a) it will never effect him because he is a 12 wound model.
or b) it will not have effect unless he suffers 5 wounds first.

Grrr, Imrahil

A) It will never effect him because he is a 12 wound model.

That's how I understand it anyway.

 

[Imrahil]

Note: So all texts that say "characteristic" refers to the Warscroll.

Additional question about this Command Ability. It says "for an attack made by a melee weapon":

Does this include the Claws an Jaws attacks or only the Weapon of the rider?
Or do you have to pick one of the Melee weapons on forehand?

Grrr, Imrahil

 

[Krissey]

Note: So all texts that say "characteristic" refers to the Warscroll.

Additional question about this Command Ability. It says "for an attack made by a melee weapon":

Does this include the Claws an Jaws attacks or only the Weapon of the rider?
Or do you have to pick one of the Melee weapons on forehand?

Grrr, Imrahil

There's only 2 weapon profiles I know of. Some are labeled as MISSILE and some are labeled as MELEE.

I think the rule applies only to profiles which are labeled MELEE, as the Old-Blood on Carnosaur's ranged MISSILE attack from his beam gauntlet can't be effected by this (or his own command ability since it's at the combat phase not shooting).

So basically the gauntlet sucks and gets no buffs