AoS Carnosaurs: Oldblood or Scar Vet?

[Fhanados]

I love Carnosaurs. Love them. I love the new model, I love the old model and I've always loved their rules. Now I have an old Carno model which I'll be using as a Scar Veteran and I intend on getting one (or two) of the new ones as well. But I'm faced with a conundrum - how should I use it?

Looking at the Warscrolls the Scar Veteran on Carnosaur seems to be a better choice.

Damage wise the Scar Veteran has a variety of weapons; the Warblade and Warspear putting out more attacks than the Oldblood's Sunstone Spear, the Greatblade doing the same number of attacks as the Sunstone Spear but with more reliable damage (2 instead of D3) and a "bonus" attack from Fearsome Jaws and Stardrake Shield which the Oldblood misses out on entirely.

In defense the Scar Veteran has the Stardrake Shield, protecting his valuable 4+ save from the dreaded Rend characteristic on "weaker" weapons, wheras the Oldblood has a 4+ save but nothing else.

The command ability on both is pretty decent. The Oldblood adds +2 attacks to another Saurus Hero's weapon - a nice boost for an accompanying Hero or one without it's own command ability like an Eternity Warden. The Scar Veteran is more of a unit booster, letting your Saurus units get an extra attack on a roll of 6 to hit. I think they're about on par.

I suppose the main difference is that the Oldblood has a shooting weapon, and not a bad one either. D6 shots at 18" hitting on 3+ wounding on 4+ with -1 rend is decent. The downfall is that it relies on a dice roll, and a bad roll can make it pretty weak.

So what do you all think? I'm honestly at a loss as to why someone would take an Oldblood over a Scar Veteran, but I want to believe it's not as black-and-white as I see it.

 

[tom ndege]

I would say both are worth considering... The scar vet is clearly better in cc so I would say take him for offensive play styles... The old blood is in my opinion more suitable for a defensive player... He can stay back a bit and weaken the enemy with shots from his gauntlet and finish them if they dare to come to close... He also has the bubble of +2 attacks for heroes as command ability. When the scar vet buffs a single unit, which is a good thing if you want to strike with the certain unit which gets the buff... So in my opinion both are good. Therefore no vote from me cause lack of options in the poll above...

 

[ASSASSIN_NR_1]

Well, with how the Oldbloods command ablilty is worded, I think you could actually make the Carnosaur have 2 extra attacks with eiterh claws or bite, making the Oldblood potentially a lot better, and with more claw attacks, more reliable when trying to take down other monsters.

 

[Fhanados]

I did not realise that the Oldblood/Kroq-Gar's command ability was a bubble - for some reason I thought it was a single target. That does make him more appealing in a situation where you might run multiple characters (particularly if those characters don't have their own command ability).

Does his ability affect him as well though? I'm guessing not since it affects units within a certain distance that is measured from him and it doesn't seem logical to include him in that measurement - but what are people's thoughts on that?

 

[tom ndege]

Don't think he gets his own buff. Maybe depends on agreement... Though he would have the key words...

But I recognized something else: The rule says " pik one of it's weapons and increase it's attack characteristics..." That seems like you choose every turn which weapon to use... Both for the effect and for attacks you do with the buffed unit... I always thought that weapons were chosen before the game...

Edit: Just recognized that the bite attacks are weapons, too... And some units are allowed to have more than one weapon (skinks for example)... According to that the rule is less confusing than I thought.

 

[Crowsfoot]

Don't think he gets his own buff. Maybe depends on agreement... Though he would have the key words...

But I recognized something else: The rule says " pik one of it's weapons and increase it's attack characteristics..." That seems like you choose every turn which weapon to use... Both for the effect and for attacks you do with the buffed unit... I always thought that weapons were chosen before the game...

Edit: Just recognized that the bite attacks are weapons, too... And some units are allowed to have more than one weapon (skinks for example)... According to that the rule is less confusing than I thought.

ATTACKING Blows hammer down upon the foe, in icting bloody wounds. When a unit attacks, you must rst pick the target units for the attacks that the models in the unit will make, then make all of the attacks, and nally in‘ ict any resulting damage on the target units. The number of attacks a model can make is determined by the weapons that it is armed with. The weapon options a model has are listed in its description on its warscroll. Missile weapons can be used in the shooting phase, and melee weapons can be used in the combat phase. e number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use

That's all the rules say about weapons so going off that you could swap weapons every combat phase if the model has more than one weapon option?

 

[Crowsfoot]

Old blood is far better in the games I have fielded him

 

[Fhanados]

@Crowsfoot I'm glad the Oldblood has performed well for you. I really like the Kroq-Gar model, it has a certain special something that makes it stand out to me.

Could you elaborate what advantages it seemed to have in game? I'm still struggling to wrap my head around what makes the Oldblood better - on paper the Scar Veteran just seems like a more solid unit to me.

 

[Bainbow]

It depends on what you're using them for. The Oldblood is a killer, by far the more powerful choice if you want to use it to tear into some enemy monsters. However the Scar-Veteran has a much better, and to be frank a very useful command ability. The deciding choice should be whether you're looking for a powerhouse or a leader.

 

[Crowsfoot]

As @Bainbow says I use the old blood as a monster hunter he destroyed stornhorn and a giant in a single battle for me.

 

[Bainbow]

Aye, for infantry clearing there are just generally better choices than either of the Carnosaurs. Rippers, Stegadons, Razordons, Salamanders, and Bastiladons with Solar Engines all do a better job. But none of them are quite as good at removing a nasty monster from the board as the Oldbood Carnosaur. The only reason to take a Scar-Vet is for its command ability and for the battalion, but that's not a bad thing because the command ability is hella good under the right circumstances and the battalion is easily one of the best ones we have if not the best, hampered only by its difficulty to pull off well compared to the other ones (but with those mortal wounds gained from the lances and the battalion rules on the charge they're easily our go-to linebreaker to break any high-armour defensive line we come across.)

 

[Xlanax_lot]

I agree with both @Bainbow and @Crowsfoot. Also I think a really good boost the oldblood gets is the 3 damage vs the D3 flr the scarvet

 

[Webb8]

Kind of confused when you guys say old blood is a monster killer and scar vet for close combat. Could someone please explain what makes the old blood so much better as a monster killer. Thank you

 

[Fhanados]

This is something I originally missed, I thought both Carnosaurs had the same damage output and it was just the riders that were different, but indeed the Oldblood's Carnosaur has a much more reliable damage with the jaws, which when combined with the Pinned Down rule can make it really devastating.

Damage wise the Oldblood does D3 damage per wound with his spear, 2 damage per wound with the Carno's claws and 3 per wound with the carno's jaws.

The Scar Vet does 1-2 damage per wound depending on his weapon, 2 per wound from the carno's claws and D3 per wound for its jaws.

 

[Webb8]

This is something I originally missed, I thought both Carnosaurs had the same damage output and it was just the riders that were different, but indeed the Oldblood's Carnosaur has a much more reliable damage with the jaws, which when combined with the Pinned Down rule can make it really devastating.

Damage wise the Oldblood does D3 damage per wound with his spear, 2 damage per wound with the Carno's claws and 3 per wound with the carno's jaws.

The Scar Vet does 1-2 damage per wound depending on his weapon, 2 per wound from the carno's claws and D3 per wound for its jaws.

Thank you for the Answer. I missed the part about d3 wounds with jaw.

 

[Killer Angel]

It's not only that.
The command ability of the scar-vet, adds attacks to other saurus' troops.
The abillity of the Oldblood, adds attacks to heroes ( and himself): so (at full health) the massive jaws do 7 attacks, not 5.

 

[Wazz]

I'm going to go with the Oldblood. I've been using heavy heroes lately and the extra attacks are nice, especially on Sunbloods and Scarvet on Coldone (if you get the rerolls)

 

[Rekmeister]

Starpriest is a staple unit for Seraphon anyway, and if you give the Oldblood the Serpent Staff Venom suddenly those jaws are dealing 6 damage should you roll a 6 on any of your 7 jaw attacks. A well played Oldblood can wipe multiple high-value units in a single game. Given, it will probably die because of how bad it gets once it's taken a few wounds, but in turns 1 and 2 it can reliably wipe something from your opponent's front line with it's crazy damage output and Roar ability.

 

[Juxtion]

Scarvet all the way!!!!
Rend block, multi weapons, easier to hit with and that command ability. Knights do things other than tie ppl up.
I have given that oldblood many trys I cannot get him to go. But my scar vet wreaks havoc on ppl.
Note I use Sunblood as my general for most games. I would say he's the best one in our army

 

[Asamu]

Scar Vets are a bit more durable, but Oldbloods do a bit more damage (Especially against other monsters) and have a significantly better command ability if you are running multiple heroes. The Scar vet is more efficient for the points in terms of pure combat ability though, so if you aren't running it as the general, and/or aren't running any other combat heroes, I'd go with a scar vet.

It does partially come down to whether or not you are running a Bloodclaw starhost, because it lets you use up to 5 command abilities in your army (4 from the battalion, and 1 outside of it). If you are running it, you could take a separate oldblood on carnosaur as the general, a second one as part of the starhost (giving +4 attacks to all heroes within 20" of both), and a scar vet on carnosaur as part of the battalion, along with a sunblood (for re-rolls to hit) and another Scar veteran hero or an Eternity Warden. The downside of such a list is the lack of mortal wounds to deal with something like a Sylvaneth Treelord list, that's spamming saves with re-rolls, though it's not impossible to deal with such lists.

If you are running 2 carnosaurs, it depends on army construction, and what you are using as the general. If one of them is the general, go with 1 of each. If one is the general and you are taking a Bloodclaw host, go with 2 oldbloods. If you are taking a 3rd character as the general, it's just preference, but I'd save the points and go with 2 scar vets on Carnosaurs.

For modelling, I'd give the rider the spear and magnetize the left arm, so you could swap it between the scar vet/oldblood whenever you want. The old metal/resin model has a shield, but also has the gauntlet and spear, so could fairly safely be used as either one.