8th Ed. Calculations on how to deal with white lions

[pendrell]

Hi there I did some math regarding how our units can deal with that insane combo of white lions with banner of the world dragon. I am always unsure whether I want to send my big block of temple guards or saurus into them because their great weapons wound on a 2+ and negate armour save. They cannot be touched by anything that contains the word "magic" in it and they have a 3+ armour save against anything ranged that is non magic. In my experience, they will not suffer anything unless you engage them in combat. If your opponent mindfarts and does not throw a unit of reavers at your salamander, or soul quench it, or shoot at it with repeater bolt throwers, or send flying 6 power 6 thoughness chicken at it, then you might be able to pick a FEW wounds at them. In the real world it is pretty hard to deal with it.

So I made some calculations, please have a look at the link below. I play ETC rules meaning that armies are 2400pt and the maximum unit size is 450 points. I considered a unit of 27 white lions full command with banner of the world dragon and the level 4 into it which makes it a 440 points unit. Compared with a unit of 30 temple guards full command (450 points) with a slann into it (with or without skavenpelt banner) and a unit of 33 saurus warriors full command (393 points) with hand weapons or spears. The reason the saurus are less than 450 points is because I want to have at least 3 units of skirmishers to fill the 600 points core, anything else is not competitive.

The assumptions I made:
-the champion is the last model dying of the unit
-slann and the HE level 4 do not contribute to combat whatsoever. But I did take into account that they "steal" combat spaces from the fighting ranks
-saurus with spears combat in 3 ranks from the first turn
-I did take into account that white lions strike first.


http://s1.postimg.org/6stsfehcv/Untitled.png


I think that the verdict is pretty clear: that the only "safe option" is to throw a TG unit WITH the banner at the lions. TG without the banner is a lost cause. I blanked when I noticed the difference that the banner makes, really absurd. Saurus with hand weapons are better than spears even assuming that the WL are charging.
I thought that TG were very superior to SW because of the higher strenght which wounded at 2+ and negated armour completely. But at the end the SW with HW have 2 more models fighting because of the absence of the slann and are more survivable because of the parry save and extra 3 models in the unit.
TG unit WITH the banner is the only unit that will win combat consistently.

Discuss!

 

[Mr Phat]

Step 1: pick High Magic - Loremaster.

Step 2: Cast Arcane unforging on the Standard bearer
- He either takes a wound or not, but the banner is destroyed

Step 3: Magic as usual.

 

[pendrell]

you are assuming to be able to resolve an arcane unforging withing the first 1-2 magic phases?

 

[Mr Phat]

why would you make that assumption?

 

[FRYtheEGGofQUANGO]

It is interesting to see how we should (with average luck) expect a combat to occur without any input from outside of a unit vs unit combat.

However, I think it is a innate aspect of the Lizardmen army where we can 'choose' when we want to commit to a block vs block cc, what with all of our pesky skinks running around and causing meyhem. I feel that the high elves can't do this as consistently well as the Lizardmen can. So, this is one advantage we have over the white lions.

Since a big block of white lions (+magic banner) (+potential characters inside the unit) are, in total, quite expensive, its only fair that our skrox block/ saurus block/ TG block gets a helping hand from the rest of the Lizardmen army for it to be a fair fight.

So...

Aside from arcane unforging, and nuke spells (like purple sun), you can rely on augments/hexes to tip the scales of combat in your favour. I hear stegadon impact hits+stomps are also quite good! Get one charging in with a saurus or TG block. A couple of salamander template hits would whittle down white lion numbers, if its a big unit. They only get a 4+ AS vs that, and lots of models can be hit (and wounded on only a 3+...) by a single flame template. And as I mentioned, we also have redirectors to minimise a white lion monster unit's impact on the game.

 

[Pinktaco]

Every time I as topic with White Lions this I cannot help, but thing about how ridiculously overpowered White Lions are. Elf players love to bring up the price pr model when in reality they're full of sh1t. Sorry for the harsh language. 13pts for a white lions that beats a templeguard in almost every aspect, can take an even more ridiculous banner and to top if off they come with stubborn.

We're paying a premium price to have an additional attack from the front which is negated by the fact that white lions hit with an additional rank. It's not 100% entirely the same, but considering they're paying less for that I couldn't care less tbh. It's not even that our TGs are weak or priced too high, it just that WLs are super ridiculous

Also do remember that white lions as of right now (if played with the Khain book) basically auto-wounds since they get to reroll their 1s in to wound.

I could contribute some more.

A suggestion could be 35 saurus warriros with spears, full command and spears. Make sure they get charged lol. They'll swing with 30+ attacks. Plop in an OB into the unit and he'll add 3+ wounds done without any magic weapons.

**EDIT**

do remembe that while our guards might take out a WL unit we'll grind ourself to death doing it.

 

[Skinquisitor]

Y U NO use salamanders? If you really find them a real threat, contain 2-3 sallie in your army. They wound on 3+, wich is saved on 4+. Pretty devastating. If you prepare specially against elves, id suggest using 2+2.

 

[pendrell]

theoretically yes salamanders should do damage but in my experience they dont have time to do so. High elves have a wide range of options to deal with them. Most often I found my salamanders dying/running due to the shots of a repeater bolt thrower or soul quench. It always seems pretty easy for my opponent to deal with the salamanders.

 

[n810]

Well then take 6 salamanders.

also I am wondering how some of our heavy hitters like
Kroxogor or cold one cav would fair ?

 

[pendrell]

hehe yes 6 salamanders will probably do, but that is almost 500 points!

cold one cav might be ok since they retain a 5+ AS and the hits from the mount actually matter. I haven't done the math but the first round of combat he will strike first and he will do 5,5 wounds on average after saves before you even get to hit. That is more than 150 points that he makes in the first round of combat. I doubt that the cold ones will grind him out. Same thing for the kroxigor, they will die before they get the chance to strike.

We would either need to do a ton of damage with relatively cheap units (witch-elves-style) or have something protected by a decent ward save. But the book unfortunately lacks that entirely.

 

[Skinquisitor]

Kroxigors and cold ones are bad idea, they die before they could do anything.
This weekend I attended a competition, we were doing 2v2 battles. I took woc, my partner played with DE. Last match we played against double helf team. They had lions, a big spearelf unit, phoenixes, 3x archers, a phoenix, a chicken, 3x chars on foot hiding in lions and a chicken rider. In turn 2 I managed to have a chimera, a chaos lord, an exalted hero and a dreadlord succesfully charge into the lions (unit was flamed previous turn by chimera). Killed about the half of the unit, but they held cuz of steadfast. Next turn the chicken rider made a rear charge, phoenix a frontal, and spearman from flank. Many elves died, starlance managed to kill the dreadlord. So we lost the combat, only my lord managed to remain in combat... Next turn the spearelves were terrored away by a hidra, and pushed off the table by another unit, his chicken rider charged by a pegasus rider. 2 turns later, my chaos lord finished off all the elves, rolled 3x on the eye of the gods table, almost turned into a spawn
So the essence: we threw 2,5 immortal characters and a chimera at them.... but that stubborn shit saved them
In my opinion, what works for us is: unforge world dragon, then s4 hit to everyone in the unit. B, sallies.

 

[laribold]

Massive Skink Cohort?

50 Skinks will set you back just 250pts and those S6 hits are wasted on T2 (some of which you may parry!).
Any kind of hex you can get on them is great too (-1 to hit especially, so Iceshard or Curse of Anraheir) as they don't get their rerolls with GW.

The poor WS of a Skinks (only 2) is an issue as you're hitting on 5s, so a Miasma or Hand of Glory will help even the stakes here.

6 wide White Lions will kill about 8 or 9 skinks on average
Horded up skinks will do about 2 or 3
That's with no magic support at all.

Probably won't kill them off, but should hold them out of the game for long enough to bring in some flank support.


Or Scar Vet cowboy with Stegadon Helm & GW. Impact Hits and T6 might grind them out (but I wouldn't count on it either)

 

[Slanputin]

I usually smash them with a Stegadon. Get in that charge and you've got Elf purée.

 

[Skinquisitor]

if you charge a 21 man white lion block with a stegadon... you take 13 hits before you stike. On a bad day, you are dead after impact hits, but you are dead in the 2nd turn for sure.

 

[Pinktaco]

Well then take 6 salamanders.

also I am wondering how some of our heavy hitters like
Kroxogor or cold one cav would fair ?

You don't have to wonder too much. CoRs will die before they swing and kroxigors are super overkill and you'll still die.

Thin out with salamanders --> templeguards + augments/hexes to swing the battle in our favor. Or just redirect

 

[n810]

Well obviously I would never advocate that to charge the front of a combat block with either unit,
and since they are slightly faster then elves it's possible that they could get off a flank charge.

 

[GhostWarrior]

WL's are good, in fact really good. In the meta where I play they have been largely replaced by PG with the Razor Standard. Elf players in our meta have determined that the re-rolls to hit, ward saves, and immunity to being Terror-bombed = a better unit.

However, if I were to face a big unit of WL's in an ETC setting with my Lizards, my approach would be as follows (I'd do this for the PG too):

1) Attempt to nuke the banner with Arcane Unforging. If successful, move to 2a, if failed, use 2b
2a) Fiery Convocation on the unit, whilst using skinks/Terrachiefs to delay the unit as long as possible. Also, Soul Quench for additional pain. Engage when manageable (10ish models left).
2b) Charge the unit with OB Cowboy wielding Glittering Scales and ToP. If he's not available, charge with PBlade, ChShield, DStone OB. If both are available, charge with both (don't add CoR's to the mix). Make sure to engage the Mage and Champ if possible. If more characters are in the unit (character wall), attempt to engage 1 or more characters and the champ. The goal here is to earn points from killing the characters whilst also holding up the WL's as long as possible. I tell you to engage the champ because if he challenges, you have to move to his champ, and if you challenge, he declines with his mage, and can move back into an unengaged position at the end of combat. Be sure to position the Ld bubble nearby so that you can stay in the fight and hold them up. If dice allow, cast Iceshard on the WL's (from priest), they hate that. If your HM Slann was able to swap, use Light Magic buffs to help in the combat (2 of them are great, 1 is pretty good, 1 is better than your opponent would expect). Continue to grind, eventually force break checks on the WL's. Hope for failure, be happy with a stalemate.
3) Should all of those options be unavailable, hope that you've done a good job on the rest of his army, and use skinks to slow him as much as possible. Take the 12-14pt win and be happy. Tell the tale of the unkillable WL's and how you still managed to pull a win. Otherwise, take the smallest loss you can, and move to a more manageable match next round.

To cover more general Lizzy builds:

Don't forget that the unit will not be immune to Terror or Panic (only way for High Elves to achieve this is with an Anointed, which is an underutilized pick at the ETC level I've found). Combo a good Iceshard Blizzard or two into the unit and try a long-range Terror charge the following turn - or shoot off a unit next to the WL's in the same turn. Heck, you can even make sure that you can try both. And the Sallies can force panic on the WL's just in a single good hit. Can't tell you how many times (actually, it's at least twice) my good buddy has basically lost a GT because he left his WL's in a place where they'd have to take an extra Terror/Panic check while playing on Table 1 in the 4th or 5th round. It's why he always takes the Annointed now.

WL's are very good - the BoTWD is silly good, but we have the tools to beat this unit. The 3++ PG with a Beasts-Buffed Anointed, on the other hand... (9 Attacks Str 7 AP with a 3+ re-rollable AS and a 3+ Ward anyone?)