7th Ed. BS 5 Stegadon

[hellbreaker]

WHAA! green text! MY... MIND!

Well as you said 2 crew is required to fire the guns, skinks chief mister cool here says:

- Hey you lousy bum you got my seat! jump off and die! So crew members how do you say about I fire the big guns since I'm a member of the crew anyway?

Skink crew says:

- Sure mister cool we could always have some use of you instead of you sitting on that throne for all eternity doing nothing until we reach that combat.

Well that didn't explain more then that he:
1. replaces ONE CREW MEMBER
2. He wants to shoot

The skinks imply that:
1. He is a crew member and can fire the big guns
2. they don't like the thought of having 55+pts sitting doing nothing for a couple of turns.

 

[Nosreme]

WHAA! green text! MY... MIND!

Well as you said 2 crew is required to fire the guns, skinks chief mister cool here says:

- Hey you lousy bum you got my seat! jump off and die! So crew members how do you say about I fire the big guns since I'm a member of the crew anyway?

Skink crew says:

- Sure mister cool we could always have some use of you instead of you sitting on that throne for all eternity doing nothing until we reach that combat.

Well that didn't explain more then that he:
1. replaces ONE CREW MEMBER
2. He wants to shoot

The skinks imply that:
1. He is a crew member and can fire the big guns
2. they don't like the thought of having 55+pts sitting doing nothing for a couple of turns.

LOL Are you actually trying to apply realism in a world with steam tanks, dragons, and fanatics?

 

[hellbreaker]

who said that I was implying realism? you implied that not letting the chief fly is not realistic in a NON-realistic game.

well, just my regards on that he is, in fact a crew member.

 

[Vagrant Benthos]

I know this conversation has ground on a while, but being that it is the internet I feel compelled to throw my 2 cents in.

In this particular case I firmly in the camp that the the Giant Bow (or giant blowpipes for that matter) may not use the BS of the Skink Chief. Here is my rationale (bold emphases are mine):

1.) Lizardman Army book, Stegadons entry, pg. 55: It takes two crew to fire a giant bow, or one for each giant blowpipe (so two Skinks can't throw javelins if the weapons are being fired).

-As part of the stat line for the stegadon (and ancient too) there is an entry for Skink Crew indicating to me that they are a separate entity in all ways from a character who takes a stegadon as a character mount. At no point does it indicate, insinuate, or otherwise convey that a character can occupy the role of a Skink crew and thus assist in firing the howdah weapon.

2.) Lizardman Army book, Stegadons entry, pg. 55: If taken as a character mount than one of the crew is displaced by the character.

-At no point does it stat that the character replaces, occupies, takes over, or in any other way duplicates the duties of the Skink crew who was just displaced. He simply is taking up the same floor space that one of the Skink crew would have occupied.

3.) Lizardman Army book, Stegadons entry, pg. 55: Stegadons of both types are treated as monstrous mounts with more than one rider, with the following additional rules:...

-So given that I go back to my BRB (or mini-BRB in my case) and check out the section on monstrous mounts. Unfortunately it doesn't cover a character making use of a monstrous mounts abilities or tools, but because it is not covered I would operate with the understanding that you cannot. As stated up the thread this is a permissive rule set. It sets down what you can do, not what you cannot do.

The analogy to the Dwarven Engineer is I good one I think in that it illustrates how an exception to the rules is specified in an Army's rule book. Under warmachines in the BRB it is noted that characters can join warmachine crews like units, but that they cannot employ the warmachine and keep a safe distance form it should it misfire. The Dwarven Engineer's entry clearly states how he gets to ignore that rule.

All that being said I would love to see an FAQ that tells me I am wrong and that the writers' intended for the Chief to be able to aim the Giant Bow. Until that time I would take the advice of talking about it with your opponent prior. If there is contention I would do the gentlemanly thing, let it go, and use the Skinks Crews' BS for the howdah weapons.

 

[Caneghem]

Well said Vagrant. That sums up the "against" arguments nicely. I concur that unless it says he can fire the weapons, he does not get to. However, it is always possible we are underestimating the sheer inconsistency of GW rules...

Until GW rules otherwise, you just have to work it out with your opponent. I reserve the right to call the practice cheesy, and I sure won't do it.

 

[strewart]

3.) Lizardman Army book, Stegadons entry, pg. 55: Stegadons of both types are treated as monstrous mounts with more than one rider, with the following additional rules:...

-So given that I go back to my BRB (or mini-BRB in my case) and check out the section on monstrous mounts. Unfortunately it doesn't cover a character making use of a monstrous mounts abilities or tools, but because it is not covered I would operate with the understanding that you cannot. As stated up the thread this is a permissive rule set. It sets down what you can do, not what you cannot do.

The analogy to the Dwarven Engineer is I good one I think in that it illustrates how an exception to the rules is specified in an Army's rule book. Under warmachines in the BRB it is noted that characters can join warmachine crews like units, but that they cannot employ the warmachine and keep a safe distance form it should it misfire. The Dwarven Engineer's entry clearly states how he gets to ignore that rule.

There is a bit of a contradiction there I think. The second bolded part quite clearly shows that there in fact are rules which state what you cannot do. More than one, in fact. Of course a rule isn't needed which states that saurus cannot fly, because that is very very obvious. If oyu have the fly rule, you can. It is a set special rule. There is no set special rule about characters firing weapons, so a lack of it doesn't mean anything.

Characters may join warmachines. GW specifically put in a rule saying what they cannot do though, this is obviously because they thought people would interprete it to mean characters can fire warmachines, whic would be fair enough without the rule. In a perfect world GW would have been consistant, and followed the same logic with the steg if it was intended that the chief cannot fire the weapon. Maybe they assumed everyone would think the chief can use it? Maybe they simply forgot? Maybe they assumed people would treat it as a warmachine? It isn't a warmachine, so that rule doesn't apply, and there are plenty of rules saying what you cannot do.

 

[Sammy the Squib]

At the end of the day, the only rules you need to play by are the ones you and your opponent agree to

 

[didleoman]

i find it interesting that the same conversation (or just extremely similar) is happening in two threads

 

[strewart]

Yes I know, it should really stay here since the other thread is meant to be about a slightly different topic. I thought about splitting and merging the threads, but that could confuse it more since they both have slightly different angles.

 

[Scarloc]

I will admit I play a BS3 steggie because BS5 seems a little OP but I do enjoy arguing a little too much.

 

[ACe]

The chief replaces one crew and the crew can shoot with the bow. I find no sensible explanation why the chief should be denied the option of firing with the bow. I've read your arguements and some of you have made many excellent points, but even when it seems a bit 'cheesy' I can't see why a more experienced skink could not aid the ones with a weaker BS. I'm going to use it as long as my enemy decides it's too unfair against his 4 cannons and 2 steam tanks.

 

[strewart]

I will admit I play a BS3 steggie because BS5 seems a little OP but I do enjoy arguing a little too much.

Do you not find BS3 a bit underpowered though? You stegadon will want to reach combat very quickly, especially if you have a character, so it will be moving, which effectively reduces you to 5+ to hit, which is quite poor for something that will only get 2, maybe 3 shots in the game because after that it will be in combat. BS 5 makes it worthwhile IMO, it is still going to miss at least one turn you fire it, and if it hits it is going to kill a maximum of 4 or so models but probably less since you need to wound every one of them one after the other.

 

[ACe]

Re: BS 5 Stegadonr

I agree, if the steg gets to shoot once or twise a game...with BS3 he is going to hit maybe once and the effect of the giant bow would be 2 or 3 kills.

 

[Nosreme]

The chief replaces one crew and the crew can shoot with the bow. I find no sensible explanation why the chief should be denied the option of firing with the bow. I've read your arguements and some of you have made many excellent points, but even when it seems a bit 'cheesy' I can't see why a more experienced skink could not aid the ones with a weaker BS. I'm going to use it as long as my enemy decides it's too unfair against his 4 cannons and 2 steam tanks.

Actually, he displaces one of the crew. There is a subtle yet important difference there.

 

[fer]

i have used the giant bow probably 4-5 games and have killed a grand total of one model with it....

so BS3 vs BS5 doesn't really mean a hill of beans to me...it might a slightly bigger deal on the blowgun though...but your still praying for 6's with that thing to get that auto wound.

 

[hellbreaker]

he displaces one of the crew.

hehe... misplaced sounds better.
Where did he go? I seem to have misplaced my 5th skink, well let's put this much cooler skink here then.


Well seriously the only problems that could come up is with the blowgun, and most people(well actually not) might have a problem due to the range=charge and doesn't take it.

 

[Nosreme]

he displaces one of the crew.

hehe... misplaced sounds better.
Where did he go? I seem to have misplaced my 5th skink, well let's put this much cooler skink here then.
quote]

LOL thanks for that. Needed a laugh today!

 

[Dalkarius]

My GW group, if anyone cares, ruled against me saying that the word "Displaced" shows he cannot and that it never states he's a crew. BTW, Giant bows are bad by any means, I smashed up a Star Dragon and loads of Dragon Princes with those suckers, even at BS 3. However, my Giant Blowpipes sucked, killing I think 3 Spear Elves total?

 

[RazorOne223]

On Page 55 of the Army book it states "A Giant bow penetrates ranks in the same manner as a bolt thrower (see main rule book)" given this I would think that all rules that apply to the bolt thrower apply to the giant bow as they refer you to the rule book.

In the main rule book on page 90 it states "To determine whether the bolt is on target, roll to hit using the crew's BS in the same way bow shots and crossbows and other missile weapons."

Also under bolt thrower summery on the same page it states:
"1.Align the bolt thrower on target and roll to hit using the crew's BS."

But given that he displaces one of the crew as this is a "Characters mount" the BS would be of the character not the crew. I think the part that this is a characters mount is the key point here.


.

 

[hellbreaker]

thing is that it's not a bolt thrower, if it was then it would've been mentioned that it is a bolt thrower not just that it penetrates ranks like one.

But you have some good points.