7th Ed. blowpipes vs Javelins

[camo-skink]

i'd say that's fair reasoning. if only razor dons had poison they'd be so much better.

 

[Barotok]

Just a quick note, Eternity_Warden, your colored posts are very difficult to read on my monitor.

In response to camo-skinks statement about razordons being very good, I would have to disagree. Defensively, they are no better than a Kroxigor in close combat (T4 for each). As far as charge deterants, they seem to do better, provided that they don't misfire. The problem is that a unit of these guys is so expensive and adding more Razordons into the mix just creates the opportunity for more misfires. Defensive? Sure, if you're looking for a unit you want to insure does not take a charge. I guess you could place them in front of a unit you were trying to protect, but.....

Can't a unit of skink cohorts do just as good of a job redirecting a charge for a much cheaper cost?

I won't argue with the fact that they can do some amazing things, if given a chance. But so can every other unit, provided that the dice gods smile on them. I don't see any reason to include such an expensive unit for a role that can be filled almost as well, but something for much less points. The only reason to include them is if you really want to insure you have an off chance at coming up huge in damage, should you force your opponent to try and charge the unit of Razordons.

 

[camo-skink]

i've played with both razordons and salamanders before, and maybe i was just lucky but they worked well for me. really it's how well they play for me, and that can change, so, who knows? might be one then the other, but i've never heard this automatic panic rule. could someone clue me in on where this is written?

camo-skink

 

[strewart]

Look under the salamanders rules for their weapon. It says if they cause even a single wound on a target with their breath attack, the target needs to take a panic check. This is where the auto-panic comes in and is very very useful. Normally you need to kill more than 25% in one go to cause panic, which is 5+ models in a standard block, but salamanders can make them panic with just 1 kill.

@Caneghem, that is a very good analysis of razordons. Great work. I am very surprised to see that on average they perform worse than a cheaper unit of skinks, even though it is a bit negative I hope that finds its way into the future razordon FAQ thread.

You're also tempting me more and more to upgrade my skirmishers to have javelins. Hmmm I don't really want the unit to be more expensive though.... Dilemas.

 

[camo-skink]

thanks for the info, but what if the enemy sustains few casualties and passes its panic test?

 

[strewart]

Exactly the same as if any other unit shot it to 75% and it survived the panic test; nothing. The advantage is it forces the chance straight away so it gives you more of a chance of making them panic, it doesn't mean they will automatically fail the panic check. When we say auto-panic we mean the test, not failing it. Also remember with the breath template of the salamander you can potentially touch 2 or even 3 units if you line it up nicely. There aren't many weapons in the game that will force panic tests on several units from one shot.

 

[Lycanthrope]

i'd say that's fair reasoning. if only razor dons had poison they'd be so much better.

And a tad bit overpowered one might argue ^^
Were it, again, not for their retarded misfire rules...

 

[camo-skink]

i hate misfire.

 

[Caneghem]

@Caneghem, that is a very good analysis of razordons. Great work. I am very surprised to see that on average they perform worse than a cheaper unit of skinks, even though it is a bit negative I hope that finds its way into the future razordon FAQ thread.

You're also tempting me more and more to upgrade my skirmishers to have javelins. Hmmm I don't really want the unit to be more expensive though.... Dilemas.

Harsh but fair I'd like to think! I just see too many people sucked in by the allure of the artillery dice for number of shots... and I want to see every lizard player do as well as possible and know the capabilities of the units. The main thrust was that they were so similar to javelin skinks (and in some cases worse), that you might as well use the rare slots for sallies. This is not to say that there are times when razordons in addition to skinks would be useful, but for building a good all-around tournament list, you want that extra bit of flexibility. There are some armies that are totally immune to psych and have no armor (Daemons! blasted creatures), so if you are tailoring a list against them you might want to include some razordons.

As to upgrading to skirmisher javelins... I've been thinking about it too. The blowpipes really only come out ahead of javelins when they get to double-shoot poison, which means if the skinks are moving that turn (which they usually will be), you have to move them into close range, which limits their effective range. With javelins, what you see is what you get. Also for the rare occasions of combats vs. enemy machine crews and fast cav, having that 5+ save is better than nothing. 6+ save against shooting.. hmm. Is all that worth 10 points? maybe....

But then I think of that nice cheap unit of 10 ranked skinks, and how if you need to shoot in any direction you can, it just will cost you some movement.

Assuming you run the ranked guys in two ranks of 5...

Enemy in front, you can just do an "increase frontage" for 1/2 move and still have 3 inches to play with.
Enemy behind, you use 1/2 to increase frontage and then 1/4 to turn, leaving only 1.5 inches of movement.
Enemy to the side, you can turn for 1/4, then increase frontage for 1/2, leaving 1.5 inches again. Though in this case, you can only have 7 shots, since increase frontage only lets you add or lose 5 to the front rank.

So with the ranked skinks you are losing a little bit of that effective range, but in a pinch you can get your 360 degree shooting going.

 

[stumpyfjord]

For the cohort vs jav. skink debate: You would also be removing your ability to go through woods/difficult terrain with speed. Not that this kills cohorts vs javelin skink debate by any means but it is one of the benefits that the three extra points pays for.

I've found that Salamanders can still do some damage vs daemons because of the regeneration on the Nurgle units. Not as awesome as frying some super expensive knights. But nice all the same.

Also, I'd like to add that I think the fact that their are very few "This is totally the correct choice always!!" units in the Lizardman list is a really big win for it's design.

 

[snowywlf]

Also, I'd like to add that I think the fact that their are very few "This is totally the correct choice always!!" units in the Lizardman list is a really big win for it's design.

I agree with this as well. There are only 2 units that I can never see myself taking (Swarms and Razordons) and people even make arguments for the Razordons. That says a lot about the viability of our units and that our book was well done.

As far as the Blowpipes vs Javelins debate goes: Excellent arguments on both sides and what it boils down to is that you should choose based on your list and intent. Neither one is perfect 100% of the time. People will have natural preferences to one or the other based on their personal playstyle, but it will always be good to remember the option of switching.

 

[stumpyfjord]

Excellent arguments on both sides and what it boils down to is that you should choose based on your list and intent. Neither one is perfect 100% of the time. People will have natural preferences to one or the other based on their personal playstyle, but it will always be good to remember the option of switching.

That, I believe, is what often gets lost in message boards. There is only intent and roles and uses in list design. I'm not great at list design, at least in my opinion, but I thought that statement should be emphasized.

 

[Barotok]

It ultimately boils down to is what the intended purpose for of the unit is, as compared to what it actually gets used for on the battlefield. If you can't effectively utilize the units you have selected, and they end up playing a different role (perhaps one that they don't excell in), it can affect the image of that unit to the player. If you have great success with something it seems better as well. Despite mathhammer's viability in predicting outcomes, any one who has ever played a game of warhammer knows that odds go out the window in any one battle at least once.

I'd say that for most standard usage, the blowpipe has a statistical advantage. Javelins do have their uses though and are capable of being effective under the right circumstances; just like blowpipes.

 

[thesecondman]

Is this post old? Someone said jungle swarms, but they're terrible. You can't even arm skink skirmishers with javelins anymore can you?

Anyhow. Blowpipes give you the option of 20 shots from a unit of 10, something that javelins do not.

 

[strewart]

Is this post old? Someone said jungle swarms, but they're terrible. You can't even arm skink skirmishers with javelins anymore can you?

Yes you can upgrade the skirmishers to have javelin and shield.

There is a fantastic thread that mathematically compares javelins to blowpipes, and javelins come out on top most of the time though I am still a bit unsure about using them due to paying more points for what is essentially meant to be a cheap support unit. Blow pipes may be able to get 20 shots, but they suffer from all the shooting penalties as well as multi-shot so you will find the times when the 20 shots are actually poisoned (6 or better to hit) are not all that often.

 

[thesecondman]

That may be the case, but maths isnt anything. There is always in-game context to consider.
For example, skinks are best used to kill fast cav and large targets (eg.giants).
Sure, they can kill other stuff, but thats the main thing the do when being offensive.
Large targets have +1 to hit due to their size, and a high toughness. This means that being able to hit them on 4's or even 3's but wounding on 6's and getting less poison procs when using javelins is not as good using blowpipes and getting 20 shots, sometimes hitting on 5's even if moving. These units are expensive as i'm sure we've all notices, poision is a good way of chipping away a few wounds.
Additionally, if a unit of fast cav (lets say 5 cav models, toughness 3, 5 or 6+ save) can get 20 shots at them, its panic test time at LEAST. Additionally you can't get more fluke luck rolling 20 dice. I know you've had that unit that's got like 10 6's. Don't even deny >.<.

Also, psychology comes into play. More dice, more scary, including the chances of getting auto-wounds of some or lots of them. Increases chance of skinks getting targeted, which is what they are really there for.
(*NB* I still think skinks only really in the army list to flee from charges, screen stuff and die.)

This is a fairly opinionated post based on my experiences playing. I'm in a different playing atmosphere than most people in the forum. I live in Auckland, New Zealand. Fast cav are mad popular...not sure about you guys in the States or England (or your individual states or counties..of course).

 

[strewart]

Proud Aussie here.

You are right that large targets will fall easier to blow pipes, most armies will have a maximum of 1 of them though. And I just noticed the thread I was referring to was this one... Its been a long day Look back to page 2:

Vs T2
Blowpipes = 3.33 wounds
Javelins = 3.89 wounds

Vs T3
3.33 wounds for both

Vs T4
Blowpipes = 3.33 wounds
Javelins = 2.78 wounds

Vs T5
Blowpipes = 3.33 wounds
Javelins = 2.23 wounds

Due to the higher accuracy of javelins (no long range penalties, no move and shoot etc.) they perform the same against t3 and better against t2, and then only slightly worse against higher toughness. Blowpipes will allow more fluke rolls though I agree, my High Elves always manage to kill far more t4 ghouls than they should with all their spear attacks.

Hmm I think there isn't really a lot of difference between javelins and blowpipes when it boils down to it..

 

[Barotok]

I'll weigh in on this discussion in light of Caneg's post earlier. While getting javelins is slightly more effective when facing T2 troops. Consider that you'll be spending an extra 10 points on a unit for arming them with the javs (1 ppm for Skink Skirmishers). Since most of the time, skinks are used for chasing down higher toughness targets (with the exception of fast cav), it stands to reason that skink skirmishers will win out almost every time due to their price and versatility.

 

[stumpyfjord]

My problem with blowpipes is I very rarely can use them to double shoot and get poison. That might be my misuse problem on my end.

The difference for me is that without the long-range/moving penalties to hit for Javelins, I can always get 10 poisoned attacks and then I get more hits which could turn into more wounds. Blowpipes, for me, will almost always give me 10 poisoned attacks but then only hits are automatically poisoned. The modifiers for moving and long range already put me at a to-hit of 6. Caneg's math is based on having 20 shots that hit on 6. I, in general, only get 10 shots that hit on 6.

There is no question that blowpipes are much better at killing LARGE targets because they can almost always double shoot and the poison tends to be what counts due to Large targets having high toughness. But for fast cav or flying skirmishers and the like I find that javelins are better.

The choice between javelins and blowpipes is based mostly on the question "Can I reliably get my blowpipes to double shoot?" That isn't to say javelins and blowpipes don't have other benefits. But that, to me, is the key when it comes down to viability as a shooting unit.

If someone can explain to me how they are reliably producing double shots out of their blowpipes at non-Large targets, I'd love to get a PM. I think learning to do that would really help my game.

 

[thesecondman]

Lol I hadn't even looked at the rules for arming them with javelins, wasn' aware that it costs more points.
That settles it. Just no.