8th Ed. Bastilodon vs Saurus Cavalry

[The Hunted]

Hey guys, I wanted to discuss this here.

Bastilodon and Saurus cold one riders are, at least IMHO, quite similar.

For the same amount of points, you get either a monster of 5 cavalry.

-M4* vs M7+swifstride
-T5 W4 vs T4 W5 (effectively)
-A3 WS3 S4+thunderstom vs A20 WS4 S4/5
-Terror vs Fear
-no flank or rear vs flank and rear
-supporting swarms, who in turn support saurus vs just supporting charges
- Ld6 vs Ld8
-Smart vs Stupid
-Small frontage vs more models*


Personally, I like cavalry very much. And I think I also prefer them over the 'Don. But I was wondering what other
people have to say about this, as I might be totally wrong.

(Also, if did I forget anything in the 'vs' section? I think I got the grit of it, but suggestions are welcome)

I like the SCOR on the flank with a unit of skirmishers nearby. They can do a good job of holding or at least delaying the enemy on that flank. With M7 and swiftstride, they are among the fastest troops we have at our disposal (bar flyers). With my aggressive playstyle, the SCOR simply outrun the monsters. When left unchecked, they deal a good amount of damage too. Especially with 4 attacks per base now!
The Bastilodon doesn't have the speed or Ld to hold up a flank, as it will get easily overrun.*
The targets that they can engage in combat are roughly the same to me, I would prefer to attack S3 (maybe S4) infantry with either unit. Anything higher than that will destroy your unit quite rapidly. I don't know the damage output of both units in combat, but SCOR have way more attacks vs thunderstomp. I like rolling the dice, so the cavalry gains my vote here.


The vulnerability to shooting is another subject.
The 'Don is ofcourse very vulnerable to cannon fire, something the SCOR aren't. But the cavalry has the disadvantage when archers/crossbows/handgunners are firing at them. It all depends on the enemy army.
Often enough, an army with war machines also has unit(s) of line shooters, so I call this one a push.


Synergy with your army;
The SCOR can escort a scar-vet/oldblood. And help out with a charge. No real synergies.

The Bastilodon has a lot of synergy. It is another monster for your opponent to deal with (target overload),
and whatever device you plant on it's back, you can synergize pretty easily with it.
Jungle swarms to give your saurus units poisoned attacks, or a laser beam that clears out enemies on the go.

Bastilodon takes it here.


The no flank/no rear is good, but not that great I think. It just means light units can't get an easy +1 for flank (or +2 for rear). The Scor don't care about light units, as they just chomp them up quite easily.
Ld 6 vs 8. Granted, the Scor are stupid, but Ld6 is something to be wary off. Your general has to be buddies with your bastilodon or it might start running away...The scor are more independant, even though you run the risk of wandering around aimlessly at some point during the game.

Terror vs fear.
Ofcourse terror is better. But is it that much of a deal? I can't really decide...

Small frontage vs more models*
The small frontage means it can still attack with all of it's force, and take few hits back (charge a saurus unit in first, then the 'Don). Also, when the Bastilodon takes a few wounds, it still operates at full capacity. When the Cavalry takes a few wounds...well, they lose 4 attacks per wound.
The fact that the bastilodon is 1 model also helps with healing through either High, or Life magic. The cav can only be brought back to life via Regrowth. The Bastilodon has more ways to get back a wound or 2.

Anyway, this is my summary for these 2 units paired up against one another. Feel free to add/discuss about them!

The Hunted

In short:
Saurus Cold One Riders have the preference of most people. They are faster and hit harder.
The Bastilodon is a decent supporting monster. But doesn't pack a whole lot of punch. The model is great though, that has to be said!*



*=edited

 

[Lizardmatt]

I think the bastiladon is another monster to deal with, only until your opponent doesn't deal with it once.
With only a S4 thunder stomp, 2 S4 attacks, and 1 S10 attack, I see this guy losing combat... a lot. You know you're in bad shape when 3 or 4 skinks attacks is a good portion of it's hitting power.
If it was stubborn like the steggadon, I'd be all in. As it is, fast cav with a standard and musician will break him on the charge, just about every time. You pretty much have to keep him in the generals bubble to have a chance. I don't see him bringing anything that justifies crowding that space.

-Matt

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

Bastilodon is only M4 ...

The two units play very different roles. The Cavalry are for hitting hard and inflicting damage, probably with a Scar Vet in there for good measure.

Bastilodon is either there to boost up Swarms or to do ranged damage (bound spell is a nice supplement to all the damage-dealing in the High Magic lore).

 

[Gor-rok]

Thanks for the analysis, Hunted.

The M4 on bastiladon would be fine, if not for the surprising frailty of something that's supposed to be a walking tank. T5 and W4 is a joke for the kind of critter the model represents.

That leaves it to the equipment to make up the difference. If you're using jungle swarms the arc is nice, but for the points you could have four more swarms +change on the table to start with. The crystal thing eats power dice if you want to shoot, and the range of the I boost isn't enough to rely on.

I love the model, and I'll probably get one, but the stats should be something like: S5 T7 W5, stubborn, and the special tail attack does d3 wounds, for like 50 more points. A big, slow, heavily armored tar pit with some support options, not a bit, slow, weak thing that dies faster than most cavalry.

For my money, stegadon > SCOR > bastiladon in the Special Choices.

 

[hdctambien]

he Bastilidon is only M4, not 6. That's not helping his case

I don't think the Bastilidon and Cold One Cav fill the same role at all. The Bastilidon wont win combat on his own. I don't think anyone should consider sending the bastilidon into a combat all on his own.

Cold One Riders you can send off on their own to killinate a bunch of stuff. The Bastilidon is built to trot along with your M4 Saurus and cover their flank (keep those pesky flankers from getting a +1 CR on them, or disrupting their rank bonus). He adds 2 S4 attacks (plus d6 S4 hits) plus 1 S10 attack. Not much, but that S10 will be nice to have if your Saurus are having trouble getting their armor.

Also, I will be running mine with the Solar Engine hanging around my Temple Guard. Now they strike at the same time as humans. It won't take much for a High Magic Slann to get them attacking *before* humans.

Also, the Engine will be zapping stuff or draining 1 or 2 of my opponents dispel dice in the magic phase.

Another thing to consider is that the Bastilidon has 50mm of frontage, while 5 coldones have 125mm of frontage. So the Bastilidon will be taking a lot few attacks than the Cold Ones. And in a supporting role, the Bastilidon can go corner to corner and be at full effectiveness (leaving the rest of the enemy frontage for the TG to fill in) while the Cold Ones had to get to a flank to support infantry at full strength (which they should be able to do with M7, but it takes a little more room and planning than just "march, march, charge")

Clearly TG + Bastilidon is more points than 5 Cold Ones, but I'm taking TG either way. And I expect the Bastilidon to shine as a support troop for them. (with my Ancient Steg/EOTG on their other flank and a Troglodon hanging around behind them for his Roar and to magic missle/direct damage then charge any troops that try to get behind my TG)

 

[Chunk]

I love the model, and I'll probably get one, but the stats should be something like: S5 T7 W5, stubborn, and the special tail attack does d3 wounds, for like 50 more points. A big, slow, heavily armored tar pit with some support options, not a bit, slow, weak thing that dies faster than most cavalry.

For my money, stegadon > SCOR > bastiladon in the Special Choices.

Thing is, if they had that kind of statline, suddenly it starts competing with Stegadons in terms of army role.

Although it might go against the description (though GW always describes everything in a hyperbolic fashion), I like that the Bastiladon is very different to the Stegadon.

Also, it only having 4 wounds isn't that much of an indication of "monsterness", the Chimera is the same size as a Carnosaur and it only has 4 wounds.

 

[The Hunted]

Oh my, I didn't even realize it only had M4! That certainly doesn't help it's case!...

I still think it is a valid supporting unit, but as it seems there are more people who prefer the SCOR over the 'Don.
The smaller frontage does indeed help. But the problem with the big beast is that it needs help all the time as well.
Now, our army has gotten more synergistic so we have to focus more on this. But still, that is a big disadvantage.

Their roles do differ, but they still share similarities. Just wanted to see what everybody else was thinking

Keep adding thoughts! Would you pick a Bastilodon over the saurus cav?

The Hunted

(going to edit!)

 

[hdctambien]

One other thing to consider is that if the Bastilidon takes 3 wounds, it is still putting out all of its attacks at full strength. If the CoC take 3 wounds, they are down 12 S4 attacks.

And the Bastilidon can be healed with High Magic.

 

[GCPD]

I think that, for its points, the Bastiladon's not too bad at all. Given that the old Skillcannon caused quite a stir, a monster priced relatively the same and with some nice tricks to it isn't too bad, even if it does feel a little underwhelming (we're just spoiled with Frost Phoenixes and Chimeras...). In both cases, I think the Ark and the Engine could be significantly better, the Ark much more so, but its pricing is about right. The Solar Engines, at least, might make my opponent a little more reluctant to throw his Chimeras about... And there's always the additional protection against Purple Sun.

They aren't going to go off and win games on their own, for sure, but neither should they at that price. But I think they'll do pretty good in pairs and as infantry support monsters, which our Saurus definitely need: giving some ranged punch, some flank protection, and a little extra bite in combat.

On the other hand: there's Cold One Cavalry. Even at 30 points, I simply can't justify the investment for so many low quality attacks at such low initiative with the chance of failing Stupidity. Stegadons seem to do the same job but better, and if I want some power projection I actually think Ripperdactyls are superior. I really don't think it would have upset game balance to drop them to 25 points, +2 for Spears, and/or a Core choice.

Hell, stick Jungle Swarms and Cavalry in Core and you're really on to some interesting variation there. Sigh.

I really hope that someone on here starts running MSU units of Cold Ones and makes them work, as I'd really like to do something with the 10 that I have rather than leave them on the shelf for another edition.

I think the bastiladon is another monster to deal with, only until your opponent doesn't deal with it once.
With only a S4 thunder stomp, 2 S4 attacks, and 1 S10 attack, I see this guy losing combat... a lot. You know you're in bad shape when 3 or 4 skinks attacks is a good portion of it's hitting power.
If it was stubborn like the steggadon, I'd be all in. As it is, fast cav with a standard and musician will break him on the charge, just about every time. You pretty much have to keep him in the generals bubble to have a chance. I don't see him bringing anything that justifies crowding that space.

-Matt

Given that it has no flanks or rear, that most fast cav are S4 at best, and that you don't see any fast cavalry with Standards, I think it has a pretty good chance of surviving... But maybe you shouldn't be putting it into combats solo?

 

[Dreadgrass]

DISCLAIMER: Still have not yet got the book!

I think the Arc setup on the Bastilladon can be very points-efficient if your planning on using Jungle Swarms.

On average, I think it's fair to assume you'll generate ~ 2 extra swarm bases per game ( Based on being in range of a swarm for at least 4 turns per game with a 50% chance of generation) I know a lot of people think that the basic 2 bases are sufficient, but I feel with there low stats and Unstable they won't last more than 1 round of combat like that. With an Arc adding an extra base or 2 before combat starts it can really help those swarms stick around.

So if your getting 2 free bases out of it, your covering almost half it's cost. It's shooting attack hasn't got any serious range to it and will primarily be used against whatever the Basti's in combat with. Kind of like a S2 Breath weapon you can fire on each of your own turns, and if it clips a 2nd enemy unit or manages to trim down some chaff that's just gravy.

So he gets into combat, presumably alongside a skrox or Saurus unit. He's tougher than your infantry units (T5, 2+ save is quite decent in this regard) so any attacks directed at him are a good thing. He also pumps out:

2D6 S2 autohits (your turn only)
2 S4 attacks
D6 S4 autohits (TStomp)
1 S10 attack
4(?) S2 Skink attacks

He also prevents you from being flanked and anything that does try and get in on that flank can only generate a max of 4 wounds for CR.

So whilst he's not going to be pancake-ing anything much solo, I think he's cheap for what he can bring to the table.

To finish with a query, if the Arc's shooting attacks wipes out a unit he's in combat with, can he (and anything else in that combat for that matter) overrun/ Reform?

 

[Dyvim Tvar]

On the other hand: there's Cold One Cavalry. Even at 30 points, I simply can't justify the investment for so many low quality attacks at such low initiative with the chance of failing Stupidity. Stegadons seem to do the same job but better, and if I want some power projection I actually think Ripperdactyls are superior. I really don't think it would have upset game balance to drop them to 25 points, +2 for Spears, and/or a Core choice.

I had success with Cold One Cavalry in the old book, and they have gotten better -- Extra attack from the Cold One plus Predatory Fighter for fewer points (drop in cost of command models males a big difference). The main advantages they have over a Steg are Swiftstride and (as long as you don't allow a flank shot) less vulnerability to cannon fire.

I think 27 points would be too cheap, but I do agree that 34 may be slightly high.

 

[Reddogfish]

Are spears really worth taking though... I was thinking every 5 or 6 cav model you get one free rather than take spears...

 

[Caneghem]

The Bastilodon was built to directly support blocks of saurus, where the saurus cav need to use their movment to gain advantage. Bastilodons I view as a perfect detachment unit to support my Temple Guard and Saurus Warriors. Think of the case of monstrous cav charging one of your blocks... the Bastilodon goes into the side wielding its str10 attack. Sure, that attack needs to hit, but after that it's a 2+ to wound, no armor. In subsequent rounds, you reform the Bastilodon to expose his rear to gain +1 to hit. Boost the weapon skill of the Bastilodon (Hand of Glory) and it might be hitting on a 2+ with its tail attack! During the grind, you can always heal it up with Apotheosis.

Cold One Riders I could see as a nice lawnmower unit, sweeping up tons of cheaper units with all of its strength 4 attacks. I'd be tempted to keep them cheap as possible (no spears), and just go off hunting easy targets. And of course you'd also probably have some scar-vets near them to get some Look Out Sir.