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AoS Balewind teleport?
- Thread starter zubrin
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This happened to me yesterday during a game with the ensuing discussion around it. Teleporting with Lords of Space and Time, that is. The fact that you cannot move while on the Vortex is a very good argument that you cannot teleport since all the results discuss how it counts as movement, lets you move or just stop you from moving altogether. I argued that my Slann Starmaster was cool enough to teleport around the board riding on a vortex. Resolving it with a dice it turned out my Slann Starmaster wasn't in fact cool enough. But we were both in agreement that it was a question worth discussing and something we would like to have an official ruling on.
Slann
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No it doesn't.
edit: To clarify that: "moving" and "removing and setting up again" is not the same. GW said that pretty clearly.
Moving means walking around in the movement phase, using your move characteristic. Using the rules for moving such as not being within 3" of enemies and so on.
Stuff that prevents you from moving does not prevent you from being teleported.
Some teleports allow or deny movement in the following movement phase.
The only thing they didn't really clarify is charging. Some abilities explicitly prevent moving and charging and piling in while others don't.
So can a wizard on a BWV charge and pile in? Probably not, that would be silly to me. But the rules as written are not even clear in that.
EDIT: That's not 100% true, they are somewhat clear, I will explain it in my next post.
I am aware that this might change in the future, but right now - from all rules I am aware of - that's the situation. Unless there is a FAQ or official commentary I am missing that is. But then I'd like to see it.
Edit2: in fact the only valid point for the opposite is the one @Dr Kaos mentioned: LoSaT says that the result 3-4 counts as movement in the next movement phase.
But is it meant that way? I don't think so. I'll make another post soon explaining why.
edit: To clarify that: "moving" and "removing and setting up again" is not the same. GW said that pretty clearly.
Moving means walking around in the movement phase, using your move characteristic. Using the rules for moving such as not being within 3" of enemies and so on.
Stuff that prevents you from moving does not prevent you from being teleported.
Some teleports allow or deny movement in the following movement phase.
The only thing they didn't really clarify is charging. Some abilities explicitly prevent moving and charging and piling in while others don't.
So can a wizard on a BWV charge and pile in? Probably not, that would be silly to me. But the rules as written are not even clear in that.
EDIT: That's not 100% true, they are somewhat clear, I will explain it in my next post.
I am aware that this might change in the future, but right now - from all rules I am aware of - that's the situation. Unless there is a FAQ or official commentary I am missing that is. But then I'd like to see it.
Edit2: in fact the only valid point for the opposite is the one @Dr Kaos mentioned: LoSaT says that the result 3-4 counts as movement in the next movement phase.
But is it meant that way? I don't think so. I'll make another post soon explaining why.
Last edited:
Slann
Aginor
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Ok, let's make this a bit more structured.
I'll use numbers so we can discuss single points more easily.
1. Does teleporting (removing and setting up a unit) generally count as movement?
We don't know for sure, but IMO the rules point to no. Here is why:
a. Moving out of combat is a retreat. The FAQ clarified though that teleporting out of combat does not count as a retreat. So that might mean that teleporting out of combat is not moving out of combat. That might mean it isn't moving.
b. There are a few units that can set up near enemy units. Most of them can't (because their abilities say so) but those who can (Shadowblade Assassins, Skaven Assassins, Chameleon Skinks) are not restricted by the rules of moving.
Now, with AoS2 warscroll take precedence over core rules anyway, so even if they were in conflict with some movement rule, they could still act the way they do.
c. The rules and FAQs (Core rules page 2 for example) often say "set up or move", so that is another point saying that they are not the same.
The old FAQ (v1.2) even explained what setting up is and how it is not movement.
d. The new core rules (page 229 of the core book) clarify movement a bit, they say that movement can happen in the movement phase, the charge phase, and the combat phase. So they explicitly say that charging and piling in is movement.
2. Does LoSaT specifically count as movement:
Well, yeah, it says so. The first interpretation of a rule has to be the literal wording, and it says so.
So while the usual restrictions for movement don't apply (doesn't count as retreat, doesn't use move characteristic, has to be placed 9" away from enemies instead of 3" and so on, things that affect ALL movement will also apply to LoSaT.
3. There are a few examples to look at:
Astrolith Bearer
Can an Astrolith Bearer plant his standard and then teleport? Well, it seems it has been played that way in official GW tournaments since LoSaT was introduced. The Astrolith Bearer's "Celestial Conduit" ability says that you may not move this model (it doesn't specify a phase).
So.... have players been doing that wrong the whole time and nobody complained?
Of course you could get around it to a certain degree. "Celestial Conduit" doesn't say when in the hero phase you have to plant it, so the
result would be the same in most cases if you just teleported the Astrolith Bearer and then planted.
Saurus Guard in an Eternal Starhost
If they don't move they get extra damage on their weapons. LoSaT counts as move so they don't get it.
4.
Sooo, what about our Balewind Vortex?
Its warscroll says it "cannot move". The core rules say movement is the stuff that happens in the movement phase, charge phase, and when piling in. It does not mention the hero phase. LoSaT happens in the hero phase.
Is it 100% clear? Hell, no. But it has a direction IMO.
5. What did they intend when writing the rules?
Well... they obviously didn't want the guy on the BWV to walk around or fly. But moving the whole thing by magical means? Not so sure.
And LoSaT? The idea obviously is that you cannot walk or fly around unless you roll a 5-6. The wording they used "this counts as the unit's move for the next movement phase" is... meh. It would have been clearer if they had just written "The unit may not move in the next movement phase"
6. But what about the 5-6 result. How do we put this mess together?
Well, here we are saved by the core rules, which say that warscroll abilities take prcedence over core rules. The BWV warscroll says it cannot move, LoSaT is an ability straight out of the core rule book. So even if it says 5-6 allows movement, the BWV saying it cannot move wins.
Bottom line: I changed my opinion a bit. I still say that generally speaking teleporting and similar stuff in the hero phase is not necessarily moving, but LoSaT probably is.
I would now say that unless clarified further by GW, LoSaT indeed is not intended to work with a wizard on a BWV because I think that
- the intention of the BWV was that it shouldn't move by any means
- LoSaT is meant as a special way of movement
7. So is the sky falling now?
No, it means two things:
- It makes the BWV a bit worse, since you have to cast it after teleporting instead of before teleporting.
- It makes the Astrolith Bearer slightly worse since you cannot use him to buff your wizards and then teleport him away to buff your other stuff with rerolls. You have to teleport him, and then plant the Standard.
But....
The new warscroll for the Astrolith Bearer in the app makes it even weirder, because it doesn't even say planting the Astrolith prevents moving anymore.
Fun times.... GW, get your s*** together...
I'll use numbers so we can discuss single points more easily.
1. Does teleporting (removing and setting up a unit) generally count as movement?
We don't know for sure, but IMO the rules point to no. Here is why:
a. Moving out of combat is a retreat. The FAQ clarified though that teleporting out of combat does not count as a retreat. So that might mean that teleporting out of combat is not moving out of combat. That might mean it isn't moving.
b. There are a few units that can set up near enemy units. Most of them can't (because their abilities say so) but those who can (Shadowblade Assassins, Skaven Assassins, Chameleon Skinks) are not restricted by the rules of moving.
Now, with AoS2 warscroll take precedence over core rules anyway, so even if they were in conflict with some movement rule, they could still act the way they do.
c. The rules and FAQs (Core rules page 2 for example) often say "set up or move", so that is another point saying that they are not the same.
The old FAQ (v1.2) even explained what setting up is and how it is not movement.
d. The new core rules (page 229 of the core book) clarify movement a bit, they say that movement can happen in the movement phase, the charge phase, and the combat phase. So they explicitly say that charging and piling in is movement.
2. Does LoSaT specifically count as movement:
Well, yeah, it says so. The first interpretation of a rule has to be the literal wording, and it says so.
So while the usual restrictions for movement don't apply (doesn't count as retreat, doesn't use move characteristic, has to be placed 9" away from enemies instead of 3" and so on, things that affect ALL movement will also apply to LoSaT.
3. There are a few examples to look at:
Astrolith Bearer
Can an Astrolith Bearer plant his standard and then teleport? Well, it seems it has been played that way in official GW tournaments since LoSaT was introduced. The Astrolith Bearer's "Celestial Conduit" ability says that you may not move this model (it doesn't specify a phase).
So.... have players been doing that wrong the whole time and nobody complained?
Of course you could get around it to a certain degree. "Celestial Conduit" doesn't say when in the hero phase you have to plant it, so the
result would be the same in most cases if you just teleported the Astrolith Bearer and then planted.
Saurus Guard in an Eternal Starhost
If they don't move they get extra damage on their weapons. LoSaT counts as move so they don't get it.
4.
Sooo, what about our Balewind Vortex?
Its warscroll says it "cannot move". The core rules say movement is the stuff that happens in the movement phase, charge phase, and when piling in. It does not mention the hero phase. LoSaT happens in the hero phase.
Is it 100% clear? Hell, no. But it has a direction IMO.
5. What did they intend when writing the rules?
Well... they obviously didn't want the guy on the BWV to walk around or fly. But moving the whole thing by magical means? Not so sure.
And LoSaT? The idea obviously is that you cannot walk or fly around unless you roll a 5-6. The wording they used "this counts as the unit's move for the next movement phase" is... meh. It would have been clearer if they had just written "The unit may not move in the next movement phase"
6. But what about the 5-6 result. How do we put this mess together?
Well, here we are saved by the core rules, which say that warscroll abilities take prcedence over core rules. The BWV warscroll says it cannot move, LoSaT is an ability straight out of the core rule book. So even if it says 5-6 allows movement, the BWV saying it cannot move wins.
Bottom line: I changed my opinion a bit. I still say that generally speaking teleporting and similar stuff in the hero phase is not necessarily moving, but LoSaT probably is.
I would now say that unless clarified further by GW, LoSaT indeed is not intended to work with a wizard on a BWV because I think that
- the intention of the BWV was that it shouldn't move by any means
- LoSaT is meant as a special way of movement
7. So is the sky falling now?
No, it means two things:
- It makes the BWV a bit worse, since you have to cast it after teleporting instead of before teleporting.
- It makes the Astrolith Bearer slightly worse since you cannot use him to buff your wizards and then teleport him away to buff your other stuff with rerolls. You have to teleport him, and then plant the Standard.
But....
The new warscroll for the Astrolith Bearer in the app makes it even weirder, because it doesn't even say planting the Astrolith prevents moving anymore.
Fun times.... GW, get your s*** together...
Last edited:
Slann
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I just stumbled upon this in the latest FAQ.
That pretty much says that Saurus Guard can have their bonus damage after teleporting.
That answer also basically says:
Replace the sentence with: "the unit may not move in the next movement phase".
...and that would invalidate some of our arguments above. It would mean that the BWV does not restrict LoSaT.
That pretty much says that Saurus Guard can have their bonus damage after teleporting.
That answer also basically says:
Replace the sentence with: "the unit may not move in the next movement phase".
...and that would invalidate some of our arguments above. It would mean that the BWV does not restrict LoSaT.