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7th Ed. Anyone use the new Razordons yet?
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Jungle Swarm
slingersam
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I dont get why people think salamanders are better
remember salamannders add a -1 to your armor
save because of str 4, wound more cause more
armor saves, remember your wounding t4 on a
5+, thats really bad.
remember salamannders add a -1 to your armor
save because of str 4, wound more cause more
armor saves, remember your wounding t4 on a
5+, thats really bad.
Troglodon
hellbreaker
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the razordons wins on several points for me.
1.salamanders look horrible! razordons don't
2.arty dices anyone?
3.double arty dices when charged!
4.good flank guards, With arty dice!
5.There just as cheap as sallies but just do better.
The salamanders win on one, and I'm not sure on it.
1.They can't misfire(?)
1.salamanders look horrible! razordons don't
2.arty dices anyone?
3.double arty dices when charged!
4.good flank guards, With arty dice!
5.There just as cheap as sallies but just do better.
The salamanders win on one, and I'm not sure on it.
1.They can't misfire(?)
Carnasaur
Caneghem
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Hits: When placing down the blast template, it is not uncommon to score over 10 hits on the enemy (For just ONE template). To even get 10 hits with a razordon, you'd need to roll a perfect 10 on your artillery die, and then roll 4 or better on 10 dice. In other words, you will never do it!
Wounds: Yes, the razordons will score more wounds per hit, but the salamanders will produce more hits!
Armor Saves: This one is the clincher. Salamanders' -3 armor save makes them very deadly... if you can wound it you can kill it. Meanwhile those str4 wounds produce only -1 AS, which isn't enough to make most things flinch. -3 AS compared to Razordons' -1 AS more than makes up for one point of strength.
Regen Saves: Cancelled out by Salamanders' flaming attacks. Razordons still allow regen.
Panic Tests: A whopping ONE casualty from a Sallie will cause a panic check, while for razordons you still must kill 25%. Good luck killing that many of an armored unit. Also, if there are enemy units behind your intended target, the odds are fairly good of killing at least one model from that unit and causing yet another panic check.
Stand and Shoot: Razordons are better here, sure. But why are you getting these guys charged? They skirmish and have M6 (or was it 5?). Avoiding combat shouldn't be too difficult.
Range: Razordons 12" Salamanders 2"-24" The flame template is 12" long, so you can hit anything from 2 inches to about 24 inches. If you can line up multiple units, you can ensure you will wreak havoc!
To illustrate, let's test both against T4, AS4+, regen unit. Ten hits land for each.
R: 5 wounds = 3.3 after armor saves = 1.6 after regen saves
S: 3.3 wounds = no armor saves = no regen saves = 3.3 total + panic check (unless immune)!
Hit for hit, razordons can't compete when hitting things with armor or regen. The areas where razordons excel are against things that you should be shooting blowpipes and javelins at in the first place. Terradons provide an even better solution for tackling lightly armored flankers. Just fly overhead with 4 terries dropping d3 auto-hit str 4 rocks. This has the added benefit of being just as effective against skirmishers due to the aformentioned auto-hit. Finally, the riders can each lob a poisoned javelin if you need to just finish them off. As an added benefit, terradons can contribute to the game in a much more productive manner once all of the lightly armored stuff is dead.
I think salamanders can still misfire... don't have my book here but seems like they would still.
Salamanders are our answer for armored chaos blocks, VC Grave Guard, DE infantry blocks, Regenning nurglings. Against other armies, they can make a mockery of their armored stuff and cause reliable panic checks. Just think of what they can do against brettonians!
Wounds: Yes, the razordons will score more wounds per hit, but the salamanders will produce more hits!
Armor Saves: This one is the clincher. Salamanders' -3 armor save makes them very deadly... if you can wound it you can kill it. Meanwhile those str4 wounds produce only -1 AS, which isn't enough to make most things flinch. -3 AS compared to Razordons' -1 AS more than makes up for one point of strength.
Regen Saves: Cancelled out by Salamanders' flaming attacks. Razordons still allow regen.
Panic Tests: A whopping ONE casualty from a Sallie will cause a panic check, while for razordons you still must kill 25%. Good luck killing that many of an armored unit. Also, if there are enemy units behind your intended target, the odds are fairly good of killing at least one model from that unit and causing yet another panic check.
Stand and Shoot: Razordons are better here, sure. But why are you getting these guys charged? They skirmish and have M6 (or was it 5?). Avoiding combat shouldn't be too difficult.
Range: Razordons 12" Salamanders 2"-24" The flame template is 12" long, so you can hit anything from 2 inches to about 24 inches. If you can line up multiple units, you can ensure you will wreak havoc!
To illustrate, let's test both against T4, AS4+, regen unit. Ten hits land for each.
R: 5 wounds = 3.3 after armor saves = 1.6 after regen saves
S: 3.3 wounds = no armor saves = no regen saves = 3.3 total + panic check (unless immune)!
Hit for hit, razordons can't compete when hitting things with armor or regen. The areas where razordons excel are against things that you should be shooting blowpipes and javelins at in the first place. Terradons provide an even better solution for tackling lightly armored flankers. Just fly overhead with 4 terries dropping d3 auto-hit str 4 rocks. This has the added benefit of being just as effective against skirmishers due to the aformentioned auto-hit. Finally, the riders can each lob a poisoned javelin if you need to just finish them off. As an added benefit, terradons can contribute to the game in a much more productive manner once all of the lightly armored stuff is dead.
I think salamanders can still misfire... don't have my book here but seems like they would still.
Salamanders are our answer for armored chaos blocks, VC Grave Guard, DE infantry blocks, Regenning nurglings. Against other armies, they can make a mockery of their armored stuff and cause reliable panic checks. Just think of what they can do against brettonians!
Troglodon
Aparach
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I used razordons vs deamons the other day, and they didn't do much harm, but did exatly what they was supposed to nevertheless.
Ran up a flank and got the attention of enemy flamers( so my saurus block could march undisturbed)
shot 1 wound or so, but ate 3 handelers... Next they got charge by a unit of bloodcrushers and shot 1 wound in one of them as well, but again ate another 3 handelers
one raaaarged and one whimpered, but they managed to hold a round so my saurus block could flank the chrushers and take them down in 2 turns.
I think you'll have to play razors a bit more agressive then sallies. Get in close fast and start shoting around to draw the enemy in place for a counter charge.
When playing sallies I would be more carefull with going to close and more try to avoid a fight than get in the thick of it, but thats just my oppinion.
another thing you should have in mind when choosing between our artillery lizards, is what kind of army you'll probably face.. I was up vs deamons, and with no armored units, the choise was pretty easy.. Don't say they would have been useless.. just less usefull for that kind of use I had intended them to do in that game.
Ran up a flank and got the attention of enemy flamers( so my saurus block could march undisturbed)
shot 1 wound or so, but ate 3 handelers... Next they got charge by a unit of bloodcrushers and shot 1 wound in one of them as well, but again ate another 3 handelers
one raaaarged and one whimpered, but they managed to hold a round so my saurus block could flank the chrushers and take them down in 2 turns.I think you'll have to play razors a bit more agressive then sallies. Get in close fast and start shoting around to draw the enemy in place for a counter charge.
When playing sallies I would be more carefull with going to close and more try to avoid a fight than get in the thick of it, but thats just my oppinion.
another thing you should have in mind when choosing between our artillery lizards, is what kind of army you'll probably face.. I was up vs deamons, and with no armored units, the choise was pretty easy.. Don't say they would have been useless.. just less usefull for that kind of use I had intended them to do in that game.
Saurus
Doom Lizard
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im just gonna use both. Picking up 3 razordons at the GW grand opening later this month. My sallies have yet to let me down. They mangled a unit of swordmasters in my last battle with HE. Not getting rid of them any time soon
Carnasaur
Caneghem
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Doom Lizard said:
Against any sort of elves, Salamanders are utterly brutal. HE and their silly ranked infantry!
Aren said:
I was initially building razordons into my list too, but I think the new chaos changed my mind. There are just so many reasons to like the sallies better. Dark elves are bringing back the infantry blocks into vogue. Nothing can really be done about the demons and their wardsaves, but at least you don't have to worry about the regenning ones. VC and their regen armored blocks will panic at the thought of these opening up on them. Brettonians fail panic checks all the time being LD8 mostly, and all you have to do is fry one knight. Skaven, dwarves, orcs and goblins... I can't think of an army these aren't more useful against.
I really wish I could have wound up on the side of razordons, the idea of having to fidget around with 3 flame templates per shooting phase is craziness!
Yea, the plus I saw of Sallies is of -3 armor save, like for instance Brets, they have 3+ armor save in open, so make that a 6+ they have a 6+ armor and I don't know if the strength is high enough to make it for their ward save. So -3 is great but when its against t4 or up it won't do as well as a t3 and Below.
But the number of shoots a Razordons can fire is awesome!
But the number of shoots a Razordons can fire is awesome!
i use them as a shield for my spear saurus'. They go up front and take a few shots (big deal) and shhot the crap out of people, then when they get charged they demolish troops, usually count on them to lose combat and flee, if they chase they have to deal with two ranks of spear saurus that dont die as easy as razordons. it worked out really well for me.
Cold One
Lounge_Lizard
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In my limited experience, salamanders are like the hellcannon of chaos: look meh on paper, are awesome on the battlefield, while razordons are more of the opposite. They're okay when charged, but if your opponent knows what their charge response is, he won't charge them. Tactically, that can be a way to hold a flank, but little else.
Cheers!
Cheers!
Saurus
Nosreme
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Arromanche said:
Wow. Well considering they are just like the old Salamanders, which were considered broken in last edition, I find this info hard to believe. Also considering the damage potential of a stand and shoot reaction (60 shots from 3 Razors), I doubt they will be charged very often. I'd suggest taking them in threes a few more games and see how they pan out. I believe both are worth their points. They are actually very equal. But they have very different roles is all. The razors have better range and are better versus unarmored or high toughness folks (and monsters like giants). The sallies are better vs. knights and heavily armor guys, and big blocks of troops. You have to decide what you think you will face.
Brets havea 2+ save for al their knights except the pegasus knights, which are 3+. But still, -3 AS is very nasty indeed!
Saurus
Nosreme
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Scarloc said:
Yeah, that's true, but aren't they BS 4? They shoot like elves, only x6 as much (potential) and with poison. I still believe they are very viable though because of the poison, which makes them very ideal for taking out monsters and high toughness units. And the stand and shoot reaction means only heavily armored units would dare charge them. As for the cover, you get to choose your targets. Shoot at one out in the open then. I still believe they are every bit as viable as sallies, just different.
I am pretty sure they are not poison attacks.
Also salamanders have a longer range as the template is 8-10 inches long and you get an arty dice amount added to it.
They may be BS 4 I am at work and the online book sites are blocked so I cannot look it up.
Also salamanders have a longer range as the template is 8-10 inches long and you get an arty dice amount added to it.
They may be BS 4 I am at work and the online book sites are blocked so I cannot look it up.
Carnasaur
Caneghem
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Yep, not poisoned, I can confirm.
Also, they are BS 3 not 4. They don't take most of the penalties for shooting, like multi-shot, long range, move and shoot, and stand and shoot. However their low BS means you'll hit on 4's mostly, meaning only half your shots will land home.
The average artillery dice roll is 5 ((0+2+4+6+8+10)/6). On a normal shooting phase, three of them will put out 15 shots on average, with 7.5 of those hitting. A stand and shoot doubles that, assuming one misfire doesn't stop the other artillery dice roll. So 15 hits can be expected on average.
The problem is things that would charge them aren't scared of str4 hits. If he rolls up with highly armored knights, those str4 shots won't seem like much.
I would have made razordons with some kind of "territorial" special rule instead of the double artillery dice. Basically it would be an automatic stand and shoot on ANY unit charging within 8 inches of the razordons. So if the enemy wanted to charge the unit standing next to the razordons, they would be compelled to shoot a single dice worth of shots if within range. This would make them truly a defensive unit.
As it stands, salamanders all the way.
Also, they are BS 3 not 4. They don't take most of the penalties for shooting, like multi-shot, long range, move and shoot, and stand and shoot. However their low BS means you'll hit on 4's mostly, meaning only half your shots will land home.
The average artillery dice roll is 5 ((0+2+4+6+8+10)/6). On a normal shooting phase, three of them will put out 15 shots on average, with 7.5 of those hitting. A stand and shoot doubles that, assuming one misfire doesn't stop the other artillery dice roll. So 15 hits can be expected on average.
The problem is things that would charge them aren't scared of str4 hits. If he rolls up with highly armored knights, those str4 shots won't seem like much.
I would have made razordons with some kind of "territorial" special rule instead of the double artillery dice. Basically it would be an automatic stand and shoot on ANY unit charging within 8 inches of the razordons. So if the enemy wanted to charge the unit standing next to the razordons, they would be compelled to shoot a single dice worth of shots if within range. This would make them truly a defensive unit.
As it stands, salamanders all the way.