8th Ed. anyone else wanting to stop playing lizards ?

[RipperDerek]

Bastiladons with the Solar Engine are quite good for their cheap point cost. They're a little specialized, and they won't dominate combats by themselves, but they're great support units.

One of the most competitive units we have access to is currently a block of 40ish Temple Guard in horde formation. Our book has very few options for dealing with a lot of the heavy combat units out there, like a horde of Trolls or greatsword Dwarves. The TG are price competitive, and with the right banner (flaming, armor piercing), they will win combats against even the toughest of foes. They're also one of the best places to have the Frenzy banner, if you're loading up a deathstar.

I bring it up because the Bastiladon's initiative buff is especially relevant for them. Against armies with 2 initiative, like Ogre Kingodms and Orcs and Goblins, striking first and killing half the unit is a huge advantage. And against armies with 3 initiative, striking at the same time stops us from losing the attrition war. It also has the side effect of making Purple Sun way less dangerous.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

I think skrox still works as a counter-punch unit.

They charge - or get charged - and get stuck in. Your opponent is stuck in a lousy situation. If he ignores the front line Skinks, their numerous and relatively high Initiative (higher if you buff them or have a bastilodon nearby) will eventually wear him down. Additionally, the attacks he puts onto the Kroxigors are less likely to wound and more likely to be saved, which makes it kind of a bad idea.

On the other hand, if your opponent decides to kill the Skinks in the front line and ignore the Krox, well, that's a bad idea, too, because the more Skinks he kills, the more Krox will be able to move into the front line, which increases the number of Strength 7 attacks he's going to be dealing with. Killing the Skinks is also kind of a bad idea.

See what I mean?

I think the new book relies on three things:

1) Smart Aggression: We know that the lizardmen want to advance. The question is now, how much? Which flank should move up faster, and in what combination? Order of operations is important now.

2) Synergies: Other factions have simpler calculus. Either they have some pieces that are really powerful and some that are really weak, but numerous (ie. Vampire Counts). Or all their pieces are good, but some of them are really really good in one way or another (ie. High Elves). Or their entire army is all about doing one thing to varying degrees of awesome (ie. Dark Elves and speed). Our army book doesn't work that way. All of our pieces are quite good at some things and really bad at other things. For success, we need to work harder at stacking our buffs.

3) Target Priority: Similarly, we need to work harder than other factions to pick our targets. Skrox are a useful unit, I think, but you need to know what to aim them at. The same is true of Saurus with spears, Saurus without, cold one cavalry... all of that. Our faction hasn't got, I dunno, Ork Boys that we can just apply until dead. We need to be cleverer than that.

That's my two cents. I'm relatively new to this game, but I see a lot of potential in our new book.

 

[GCPD]

I think skrox still works as a counter-punch unit.

They charge - or get charged - and get stuck in. Your opponent is stuck in a lousy situation. If he ignores the front line Skinks, their numerous and relatively high Initiative (higher if you buff them or have a bastilodon nearby) will eventually wear him down. Additionally, the attacks he puts onto the Kroxigors are less likely to wound and more likely to be saved, which makes it kind of a bad idea.

On the other hand, if your opponent decides to kill the Skinks in the front line and ignore the Krox, well, that's a bad idea, too, because the more Skinks he kills, the more Krox will be able to move into the front line, which increases the number of Strength 7 attacks he's going to be dealing with. Killing the Skinks is also kind of a bad idea.

See what I mean?
.

Erm, no. I can't think of anything that Skinks could wear down. Goblins? Skaven slaves maybe?

Basically, high Strength/low model count units such as Knights, Monstrous Cavalry and Monsters will focus on killing the Kroxigor. What the Skinks contribute in Static Combat Resolution (max. 4 with 3 ranks and a Standard), the enemy will make up for in wounds inflicted (if one of the aforementioned units can't do at least 3 wounds on the charge, something else is awry). In round 2, once the Kroxigor are dead and the threat of S7 retaliation eliminated, the opponent can then focus on killing the Skinks.

A low strength/high model count unit, such as most infantry, will focus on killing the Skinks. Whilst the Kroxigor will contribute a few high Strength attacks to the combat, it isn't enough to offset the wounds lost to the Skinks dying in droves. That they suck against infantry is exactly why you used to send Skink-Kroxigor against Knights, Monstrous Cavalry and Monsters in the last book.

 

[Orangecoke]

I have a lot of Lizardmen models waiting in the wings for assembly and painting as I work my way through an army. Came here for inspiration lol - this is depressing!

 

[GCPD]

All I can say is - don't be put off by it. Be under no illusions, but find an angle that you can make unique and really enjoy playing.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

All I can say is - don't be put off by it. Be under no illusions, but find an angle that you can make unique and really enjoy playing.

I mean, is anyone saying that Lizardmen are now on the trash heap? That we'll never win a game again? Perhaps we lost some of our edge - I still think it's not all that bad, but what do I know - but we certainly aren't at the point where a little skill and a little luck can't get you wins!

 

[chefsdad]

I have a lot of Lizardmen models waiting in the wings for assembly and painting as I work my way through an army. Came here for inspiration lol - this is depressing!

Don't listen!

Played a few games with the new book and loving it. Not played hardcore competitive yet, but most of the stuff that was good before is good now (only Skrox suffered that badly tbh). Finding them a little harder to play than before, but still great fun.

You can't just push it forwards and win, the army is not built that way. Every other army has an answer for our combat troops (for the most part), so you have to pick your fights and combine arms. All about the movement phase, very tactical, and very rewarding.




Don't let whining put you off!

 

[Orangecoke]

I mean, is anyone saying that Lizardmen are now on the trash heap?

It's kinda the vibe from the thread lol

Good thoughts though guys (ie the encouragement) - chefsdad etc

 

[GCPD]

I mean, is anyone saying that Lizardmen are now on the trash heap? That we'll never win a game again? Perhaps we lost some of our edge - I still think it's not all that bad, but what do I know - but we certainly aren't at the point where a little skill and a little luck can't get you wins!

No, that's not what I've been saying, nor does it seem to be the original point of the OP. Certainly they took a knock to competitiveness, but that was entirely justifiable with some of the silly things that you could pull off with the last book. Leveling the playing field is fine with me.

My biggest complaint, and its the same complaint since release day, is that the book is dull. Every army went through an overhaul when their 8th edition book landed, some more so than others. The new Dark Elf book, for instance, has pretty radically changed the way people are approaching list building. Say what you like about cynical attempts by GW to get you to buy new stuff, that's exciting.

8th edition Lizards leaves you with the same styles of play as before. Competitive players will have Skink clouds. Noncompetitive players will have Slann + Temple Guard death stars. A small minority will struggle on with no Slann builds. There'll be fewer double Slann shenanigans and less Salamanders, and there might be a few more Stegadons and Ripperdactyls, but little else has changed. Other than dropping Skink-Kroxigor, I could have literally taken my existing list and used it just as well under the new book - that its different at all is because I deliberately forced myself to do something new just so it wouldn't be stale within the first month of release. That's pretty damning. Here's the new Lizardmen, same as the old Lizardmen.

And just to add insult to injury, almost everyone will have a Core using x Saurus and y Skinks, because that's all Vetock left us with after moving Jungle Swarms out and making Skink-Kroxigor irrelevant. 25% of almost every Lizardman army will be identical, not because they are the power choices but because they are the only choices. This in an edition with Core Silver Helms, Core Witch Elves, and Core Chaos Chariots. Yawn.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

I mean, is anyone saying that Lizardmen are now on the trash heap? That we'll never win a game again? Perhaps we lost some of our edge - I still think it's not all that bad, but what do I know - but we certainly aren't at the point where a little skill and a little luck can't get you wins!

No, that's not what I've been saying, nor does it seem to be the original point of the OP.

I was responding to the prior poster's fears, not to anything I'd seen on the thread. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough - I don't want to mischaracterize anyone.

 

[Pinktaco]

I think GCPD got it right. As a new player it doesnt bother me too much since everything is new anyway. I do, however, feel sorry for the veterans. Pretty much all units stayed the same with minor differences, with the exception of the already mention skrox unit.. And the slann..

For me, as a new player, I find it incredible ridiculous that GW even bother to make a new model, only to give it awkward rules even the model itself is baffled about. I also find it strange that the carnosaur can be such a failure, especially because I would've loved a cheaper version as a rare stand alone model.

Overall Im having fun though, so I'll live

 

[Prof]

I for one am really enjoying the new rules and the flexibility I get with list building.
The egg is awesome, as was the look on my brothers face when my laserdon zapped his gorgon!

But I'm only a casual player for fun, so what do I know

 

[GCPD]

I mean, is anyone saying that Lizardmen are now on the trash heap? That we'll never win a game again? Perhaps we lost some of our edge - I still think it's not all that bad, but what do I know - but we certainly aren't at the point where a little skill and a little luck can't get you wins!

No, that's not what I've been saying, nor does it seem to be the original point of the OP.

I was responding to the prior poster's fears, not to anything I'd seen on the thread. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough - I don't want to mischaracterize anyone.

Ah, sometimes teh interwebz is unclear. Not to worry

 

[Dissus]

I wonder what that flexablily in list building is you are talking about. Your pretty much stuck with the same list as last edition. Only the list got less powerfull.

 

[Spiney Norman]

I think the 8th edition book is great actually. I actually prefer it when a new edition is more of a fine tuning of the old list because it gives them a chance to to improve the internal balance rather than drastically changing how the army works and basically going back to square one.

The Slann was grossly overpowered, it was going to cop a hit from the nerf bat - learn to deal with it

For those that are complaining about the change to Skink/Krox mixed units you need to recheck your 7th edition book before the 8E FAQ. When the skink/Krox mixed unit was originally conceived the Kroxigor were targetable in combat just as they are now, it was only a quirk of 8th edition that gave them immunity, as though that was going to last... And while its true that putting Kroxigor in a skink unit means they can't use their pred fighter bonus or their stomps, maybe that was designed as an incentive to field them in units on their own (which there was just no reason to do in the old book).

I can understand why folks are miffed that we lost the overpowered mess that was our 7th-ed-book-in-8th-ed-rules, but it was inevitable. I would regard Lizardmen as one of the most internal balanced books of all the 8E books, just because the rules designer didn't make all your army list choices for you and you actually have to think about what you are going to take.

I've played a fair bit with the new book and come to some surprising conclusions. Ripperdactyls are actually very good when you get around to using them, Ld5 frenzy is much less of a problem on a unit that can free reform whenever it likes because if you really don't want them to charge you face them off the board edge. They don't have rocks which is sad, but they can actually do more than wipe the enemy's nose in combat, which is where terradons struggle.

At the end of the day if you compare the new book unit by unit to the old one you will probably think it is lacking, but overpowered lists don't last forever so perhaps its time to grow up a little and learn how to actually play the game, rather than simply relying on your OP Slann to carry the day for you.

 

[Prof]

I wonder what that flexablily in list building is you are talking about. Your pretty much stuck with the same list as last edition. Only the list got less powerfull.

I've played several games with the new rules, and had a different list each time. All have been fun games.
Yes, I'm basically fielding the same core choice each time, but that's not where the fun lies in my games anyway.

Sometimes rippers causing chaos in the backfield, monster mashing, running a cold one bus to deliver an oldblood and cowboys to where they are needed, slann TG deathstar, a lone group of Krox to give them something to think about.

I'm enjoying my opponents not knowing what I'm going to field in my Lord/Hero and some special slots, and each game has been different. Wandering deliberations on my Slann last game was a great asset - some great things in the new book (and yes, some not so great, but hey)

I'm out for the enjoyment factor, winning every game would be a nice bonus, but the more interesting the journey the better for me!

 

[Spiney Norman]

I wonder what that flexablily in list building is you are talking about. Your pretty much stuck with the same list as last edition. Only the list got less powerfull.

No, it didn't, the power just got spread around a little more evenly.
The Slann is still great, wandering deliberations makes him extremely flexible and still powerful, salamanders going up to S4 makes them more useful against T4 targets , Kroxigor and Saurus got better (pred fighter), because lets face it, its going to be a pretty rare occurrence where you don't have at least one skink priest running around to circumvent the forced pursuit thing. Also being able to throw a L1/2 with beasts is a step forward as well, nice as heavens is, mor options and flexibility are good.

Cold one riders got cheaper, though I would argue not cheap enough, you just have to run them with hand weapons instead of spears which requires a little conversion.

Ripperdactyls are great as a distraction/anti-chaff/anti-warmachine unit, and dropping a toad on one of your enemy's most important units (I usually choose the one containing the Mage-lord) can seriously unsettle him.

 

[Dissus]

At the end of the day if you compare the new book unit by unit to the old one you will probably think it is lacking, but overpowered lists don't last forever so perhaps its time to grow up a little and learn how to actually play the game, rather than simply relying on your OP Slann to carry the day for you.

Nice. I would avoid telling people to grow up just because they have an opinion other then your own. Its verry childish. And your basicly telling folks to l2p. You have no clue how i play. What makes you the all knowing god here? please....get off your throne wise guy.

I never said i expected the slann to stay as it was. And i think no1 here was. But the book is poorly thought out and full of errors and rules that are poorly worded. Where as other books got more choises for core we got more limited in core. PF is unclear on the extra ranks. Tiktaq'to has a special rule "mask fo the heavens"that realy shows us just how much the person that wrote it knows about the actual game.

 

[Dissus]

edit: nvm

 

[RipperDerek]

I don't think the major complaint from this thread is seriously that the Slann deserved to stay overpowered forever. Knocking down strawmen is easy, but unimpressive for precisely that reason.

The primary complaint I've voiced, and it seems to me which most support, is that the new book isn't as well thought out, carefully constructed, or significant an update as the other new books. Which is objectively true, for an entire laundry list of reasons which have already been stated, but remained completely unaddressed for these last several pages. The book is a mess; the rules are sloppy, the flavor doesn't match the function of the units, and the art is controversial to say the least. On top of that, it's closer to a version 7.5 than an 8.0; but even evaluating it aa a version 7.5, it introduces at least as many new problems as it managed to fix old ones.

Also, comparing our book to previous editions and pointing out some upgrades some units got isn't a useful exercise. It isn't competing with out-of-print books from previous editions, it's competing with the other modern 8th Edition books. It needs to measure up in that arena, and it doesn't.