8th Ed. Am I imagining this?

[Pyre]

Hi this is my first post here and I'm just starting my Lizards. I was browsing through the FAQ and noticed something potentially odd. Specifically this:

Q: Can you Stomp or Thunderstomp a unit of Skinks that
contains Kroxigor? (p94)
A: No, a mixed unit has the troop type of Unique.

If they're unit type Unique that would mean they're immune to Killing Blow as well, correct?


Pyre

 

[strewart]

Hmm thats an interesting question. From what they said in the FAQ, I guess so. However, it would almost never actually matter. Only time it might is if you put a character in the unit, and even then does a character adopt the unit's type or still use its own? I imagine it uses its own.

 

[Agrem]

I think this comes to down to the fact that stomps are distributed as shooting which means that the kroxigors could be hit by this. But since kroxigors are illegal target for stomp it is then ruled that you can't stomp.

Killing blow being close combat attack you (almost) always target your strikes against something. This way you can only strike or maybe more or less "choose" to strike the skinks which are viable targets for killing blow.

Of course you could still make this fight about RAW vs. RAI.

BR
Agrem

 

[Pyre]

I don't think it would apply to characters joining the unit, no, but I guess it could mean the skinks would still get some kind of save against say TK units with killing blow or Bloodletters. Yeah, kind of a stretch there...

I think this comes to down to the fact that stomps are distributed as shooting which means that the kroxigors could be hit by this. But since kroxigors are illegal target for stomp it is then ruled that you can't stomp.

Killing blow being close combat attack you (almost) always target your strikes against something. This way you can only strike or maybe more or less "choose" to strike the skinks which are viable targets for killing blow.

Well normally I'd just kind of shrug this off as one of those stupid rulings that occasionally pop up in FAQs, but the problem is by defining the Skrox as a "Unique" unit type, that's a specific rule designation. This is not some random statement, but a pretty specific ruling on a very important in-game definition. I haven't checked to see if this matters to anything else (like Restoration in Life Lore) but it could go against as much as for the Skrox and all of it should apply.


What kind of brought this up to me is does this mean that Skrox units are immune to the Skaven "Dreaded 13th Spell?" The spell specifically targets infantry which, according to the FAQ, the Skrox are not. Now I'd be the first to admit that there's a little RAW in there, but if ever there was an army that deserved to have some RAW goes against them its the Skaven... and maybe Daemons.


Pyre

 

[Agrem]

What kind of brought this up to me is does this mean that Skrox units are immune to the Skaven "Dreaded 13th Spell?" The spell specifically targets infantry which, according to the FAQ, the Skrox are not. Now I'd be the first to admit that there's a little RAW in there, but if ever there was an army that deserved to have some RAW goes against them its the Skaven... and maybe Daemons.

This one is actually pretty clear since the Rat FAQ clearly states that you can't target a unit which has infantry and non-infantry units in them. So yes, Skrox units are immune to the dreaded 13th.

I can see your point of view in the issue of killing blow and you brought up valid points which tells us that they infact could be immune to KB. But I'm still not 100% convinced. I still think that this is matter of targeting your attacks and "distributed as shooting". But then again as it's been said that it rarely makes any difference. Most units that have killing blow will negate the skink shields with their strength anyway and you can still make the parry save against KB. And you rarely see any characters inside these units if they are in combat. So I doubt anyone will be running these kinds of situations often.

BR
Agrem

 

[Old Mossy]

Killing blow specifically states unit types it's effective against: infantry, cavalry, and war beasts.
Skrox are unique unit type. Killing blow is not effective.
Maybe consider kroxs too big to slay in a single blow, and skinks are usually going to die on a 6 to wound regardless.

Also, there is nothing about stomp hits being distributed like shooting. It just says base to base contact. You might be thinking of impact hits, which are distributed that way.

 

[Agrem]

Also, there is nothing about stomp hits being distributed like shooting. It just says base to base contact. You might be thinking of impact hits, which are distributed that way.

Ah, I might have done that or misread it of something. Thanks for correcting.

BR
Agrem

 

[Batu]

To say that a Stomp or Thunder Stop would not work against a Skrox unit is seriously looking for loopholes.

We allow stomp ect. to work. however, the stop is directed at the front rank. (duh factor is pretty high there)

As far as using the "Unique" unit to say they are IMMUNE to magic is also asinine.


Common sense everyone.


A good mantra for GW rules. If the rule doesn't make sense...common sense must RULE.

If you are looking for loopholes to disallow Stomp or Magic to work against a mixed unit...then you must really be pathetic at this game. Best advice... Ebay your army and play risk.

Seriously

 

[ForgottenKnight2001]

To say that a Stomp or Thunder Stop would not work against a Skrox unit is seriously looking for loopholes.

We allow stomp ect. to work. however, the stop is directed at the front rank. (duh factor is pretty high there)

As far as using the "Unique" unit to say they are IMMUNE to magic is also asinine.


Common sense everyone.


A good mantra for GW rules. If the rule doesn't make sense...common sense must RULE.

If you are looking for loopholes to disallow Stomp or Magic to work against a mixed unit...then you must really be pathetic at this game. Best advice... Ebay your army and play risk.

Seriously

A good hint for most games is that if the rule doesn't make sense, common sense must rule. However, when dealing with Games Workshop, common sense frequently doesn't make an appearance.

Oddly enough here's GW's response on the stomp issue

Q: Can you Stomp or Thunderstomp a unit of Skinks that
contains Kroxigor? (p94)
A: No, a mixed unit has the troop type of Unique.

- Lizardmen Official Update Version v1.4 (pg 3)

No word twisting or loopholes.

 

[Old Mossy]

To say that a Stomp or Thunder Stop would not work against a Skrox unit is seriously looking for loopholes.

We allow stomp ect. to work. however, the stop is directed at the front rank. (duh factor is pretty high there)

As far as using the "Unique" unit to say they are IMMUNE to magic is also asinine.


Common sense everyone.


A good mantra for GW rules. If the rule doesn't make sense...common sense must RULE.

If you are looking for loopholes to disallow Stomp or Magic to work against a mixed unit...then you must really be pathetic at this game. Best advice... Ebay your army and play risk.

Seriously

Not every opponent I've played against is blessed with common sense, and most don't interpret 'common sense' rules the same way as I might. What you're saying is true, and that's how house rules develop. I don't see why a kroxigor holding back a stomp attack is ridiculous. Why does that make less sense than him watching his skink friends get squashed, especially when he's right there?

No one said all magic, just the Skaven 13th spell. I'm probably with you here, as I would let that affect my skinks, but not my krox (as they're normally monstrous infantry). However, that spell is lame and way OP, so I don't care

Also, not everyone is playing at their mate's house in a friendly game. Some people play tournaments for prize money, where I imagine people generally go by the book. And by the book, those are the rules.

Also, I kind of found the tone of your post quite insulting. You sound like someone who might not be particularly compromising with someone who comes to a different conclusion when interpreting a rule/using common sense. Seriously

 

[Gor-rok]

+1 Old Mossy, well said. This game is complicated enough without trying to pick and choose which of GW's bizarre rule clarifications should be followed and which shouldn't. And if you're playing competitively, just try and argue "common sense" vs Official FAQ and see how far you get.

As I see it, the important difference between stomp/13th spell and HtH killing blow is the way they target the opponent. Stomp and the spell target the unit as a whole, so the "unique" unit type comes into play. Close combat KB is targeting a specific model, which doesn't become unique just because the unit it's in is.

Killing blow templates from the scrap launcher should be simple, since only the models touched are hit. KB from ballistic skill based shooting (Wood Elf) seems more of a grey area. We randomize the hits onto skinks and kroxigors, but the shooting targets the unit as a whole. I'd lean towards immunity.

I don't have the new Tomb King book, but I wonder how this impacts their thundercrush attack.

 

[Chaq Mundi]

@Gor-Rok: Just curious, but what exactly do you mean by "immunity"? Do you mean the Skrox unit would be completely unaffected by those KB shooting attacks? Or that you just wouldn't apply the KB rule onto the Kroxigor if they were hit? Thanks in advance for the clarification!

 

[Pyre]

To say that a Stomp or Thunder Stop would not work against a Skrox unit is seriously looking for loopholes.

We allow stomp ect. to work. however, the stop is directed at the front rank. (duh factor is pretty high there)

As far as using the "Unique" unit to say they are IMMUNE to magic is also asinine.


Common sense everyone.


A good mantra for GW rules. If the rule doesn't make sense...common sense must RULE.

If you are looking for loopholes to disallow Stomp or Magic to work against a mixed unit...then you must really be pathetic at this game. Best advice... Ebay your army and play risk.

Seriously

Well someone is a little angry. No-one is looking for a loophole at all, people are QUOTING the FAQ, and like I've said if this was some kind of random non-sense ruling it wouldn't be a big deal. Rather they are defining the unit type for the Skrox unit: unique. Ignoring that would be like ignoring the way things effect the Screaming Bell. Besides there's no major benefit here. The killing blow discussion has been more just a discussion since odds are it would never really matter anyway... ok so the skinks can get their parry saves, not sure I'd argue with anyone over that.

And calling people pathetic simply because they're discussing a strange ruling by the company that makes the game doesn't add anything to the discussion, and frankly makes any point your trying to make seem all that much more irrelevant.


Pyre

 

[Pyre]

Back to the discussion at hand: I think the shooting aspect of the killing blow question is pretty easy to solve if you don't want to do the "immune" route. If it BS based then just randomize as per the Skrox rules and ignore the ones hitting the kroxigors. If its template related, just ignore the hits on the kroxigors and roll the skinks hit.

As for the HtH question... they're immune, but if my opponent was really worried about it we can dice it or just shrug and move on. Its really not that big of a deal.

So here's a new one: the FAQ talks about figuring out how a bolt thrower hits a Skrox unit, but if the bolt hits a skink first do you randomize which of the front rank is hit or does someone pick? If someone picks, who? Normally none of that's an issue with bolt throwers, well as long as there's five rank and file, but with a completely different model in the second rank it matters.



Pyre

 

[Agrem]

So here's a new one: the FAQ talks about figuring out how a bolt thrower hits a Skrox unit, but if the bolt hits a skink first do you randomize which of the front rank is hit or does someone pick? If someone picks, who? Normally none of that's an issue with bolt throwers, well as long as there's five rank and file, but with a completely different model in the second rank it matters.

For this I would say that If you randomize the first to kroxigor it's pretty clear by the FAQ. If it was a skink then it depends on your unit formation. If your unit is 6 skinks wide with 3 kroxigors I think it's pretty obvious that the next one in line will be a kroxigor, no matter what.

But it get's more interesting if you have for example 5 wide as you said and with two or one kroxigor. I would say that if the first hit was randomized to skink, it hits a skink in front rank. Then randomize again by the randomizing rules in LM book. If you roll so that it would hit a kroxigor then resolve out the damage to it otherwise if it hits skink again then no kroxigors will be hit because the model in third rank has to be skink if two skinks were hit.

Hopefully I was confusing enough.

BR
Agrem

 

[pimmilicious]

My commonsense says that stomp doesn't work against skrox units. Combat is not static but need to be seen as highly dynamic (especially the skinks in combat, they are fast and moveable by their nature). If you look at the combat between for example a hydra and a skrox unit, you need to think of the hydra not being able to stomp on the skinks because the Kroxigor (which are definitely to big to stomp on (I guess you also can't stomp with your feet on your table)) are moving in between them. Saying that stomp works because the monster is in combat with the front rank doesn't make any (common)sense.

It's a pity that some people have a lack of fantasy these days.

 

[ForgottenKnight2001]

So here's a new one: the FAQ talks about figuring out how a bolt thrower hits a Skrox unit, but if the bolt hits a skink first do you randomize which of the front rank is hit or does someone pick? If someone picks, who? Normally none of that's an issue with bolt throwers, well as long as there's five rank and file, but with a completely different model in the second rank it matters.

For this I would say that If you randomize the first to kroxigor it's pretty clear by the FAQ. If it was a skink then it depends on your unit formation. If your unit is 6 skinks wide with 3 kroxigors I think it's pretty obvious that the next one in line will be a kroxigor, no matter what.

But it get's more interesting if you have for example 5 wide as you said and with two or one kroxigor. I would say that if the first hit was randomized to skink, it hits a skink in front rank. Then randomize again by the randomizing rules in LM book. If you roll so that it would hit a kroxigor then resolve out the damage to it otherwise if it hits skink again then no kroxigors will be hit because the model in third rank has to be skink if two skinks were hit.

Hopefully I was confusing enough.

BR
Agrem

I'd agree with this.

If the first model hit is a kroxigor, then the next model would definitely be the skink behind it -or- the kroxigor next to him if shot in the side (shame on you for getting shot in the side )

If the first model hit is a skink, since the 2nd rank is mixed, you'd randomize which model is hit by the bolt thrower bolt.

Then if the kroxigor is slain (/weep) it goes to the model behind him

---------------------------
This is just to complain about GW's wording and not for any argument sake! Don't take the next paragraph seriously!

"Note that if the first model hit is a Kroxigor, then the Skink in front of it is not hit."

The wording for the FAQ seems to assume that you're not being shot in the side either. If the model in front of the kroxigor is shot, does that mean that if shot in the side, it always hits the skink first, since the one that was in front is safe, but the one beside him isn't?

 

[Pyre]

My only hesitation with using said method is that it actually can heavily favor the Krox surviving. For example, if I'm running five wide and have two Krox, then there should be an 80% chance of a Krox taking the bolt hit in the second rank. Using the randomization from the book reduces that to a 33% chance. To me it would almost be better to roll for it (the 1-4 hits a krox, 5 hits a skink, and 6 is re-rolled).



Pyre

 

[ForgottenKnight2001]

My only hesitation with using said method is that it actually can heavily favor the Krox surviving. For example, if I'm running five wide and have two Krox, then there should be an 80% chance of a Krox taking the bolt hit in the second rank. Using the randomization from the book reduces that to a 33% chance. To me it would almost be better to roll for it (the 1-4 hits a krox, 5 hits a skink, and 6 is re-rolled).

You're probably right. Instead of using the in-book thing, it'd be best randomize based on the actual chance of it being hit. It'd make a single krox in a horde a lot safer and be more "realistic"

 

[Gor-rok]

I think the shooting aspect of the killing blow question is pretty easy to solve if you don't want to do the "immune" route. If it BS based then just randomize as per the Skrox rules and ignore the ones hitting the kroxigors. If its template related, just ignore the hits on the kroxigors and roll the skinks hit.

This seems like the best way to go. It's probably better to read as little as possible into the implications from these FAQ's. I've always sworn by Skrox units, but the potential for rules confusion is such that I'm almost reluctant to take them these days.

Before the "unique" unit ruling, I used to randomize stomps onto both skinks and kroxigor, since stomps are distributed like shooting. The hits allocated to the kroxigor were ignored, and everything seemed to make a lot more sense.