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AoS Alternatives to constricted summoning

Gorgerak
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Gorgerak

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Summoning is a huge part of Age of Sigmar, but it is also very powerful. Every comp pack that I have played with, has put heavy restrictions on the use of summoning. Mostly surrounding having a small 'pool' of pre-defined units that you have available to summon during the game and the existance of this 'pool' impacts on the size of the force that you can start the game with.

This turns summoning into a purely tactical mechanic of when do you bring certain units into play which I am having great difficulty in working out how to use properly. To the point where often, I completely abandon it - this feels like im giving up on one of the biggest factors in the seraphon game.

I can see why its done - people dont like the idea that you match up two relatively equal forces then one person starts putting on an extra unit of Kroxigor, a bastiladon, a new powerful combat character etc etc.

What I dont have is a proposal to offer as a counter to this constriction.

How do you guys play summoning?
Do you leave completely open, as the AoS rules state?
Do you have similar restrictions to the above?
If so how do you manage it when going into a game against an unknown force?
Do you have other ways of playing with summoning?

I'd love to hear all options and sugestions, no matter how spur of the moment, or rediculously complex they are.
 
Only play with my son but when we summon it is wound restricted as follows

60 wound game, 15 wound summon allowance
120 wound game, 30 wound summon allowance
 
So you limit the amount that you can summon, but with no restriction on what you decide to summon at any given point?
 
Gorgerak said:
So you limit the amount that you can summon, but with no restriction on what you decide to summon at any given point?
Click to expand...

Yes basically we can summon any model we own up to the wound limit.
 
The limit we usually play with is that you can't summon anything you don't have on your list at the start of the game, basically it's a way of bringing back fallen units or starting out below the wound limit and using summoning to have an effect similar to how Chameleons appear out of nowhere. What keeps this balanced is that in order to win you don't need to table your opponent, you just need to score 125 wounds against them in a 125 wound game or 100 wounds in a 100 wound game, basically take out their starting allowance.

This is actually a rule in the main rulebook and people just don't read it. It's only four pages, come on! If you take out 100% of your enemy's starting forces, you win a major victory. If your opponent starts with three models and then summons 100 more, you only need to kill three models in order to win because 3 is 100% of their starting army. SUMMONING IS ALREADY BALANCED BY THIS, YOU DON'T NEED TO BALANCE IT FURTHER!

Of course in games involving certain objectives like the Quest For Gold that I shared with people, a constraint is needed because the win objective isn't to kill 100% of the enemy forces, it's to get the objective. The best method we've found for this is to give the non-summoning armies a higher wounds allowance, 130 Wounds in our case, and to give the summoners a smaller 100 Wounds. However over the course of the game, the summoners can summon more wounds than the non-summoners have, giving the non-summoners an early game advantage and the summoners a late game advantage. It balances out quite nicely.
 
I've always played without any sort of limitation (and I've always had al lot of fun), but I think a simple balance between a "summon army" and a "not-summon army" could be achieved by simply following this rule:
anyone can summon what/when he prefers, but NOT model with the keywords Hero, Wizard, Priest or Monster.

The reason is very simple: the balancing factor given by the rules to the ability to summon is the following
"Models added to your army during the game (for example, through summoning, reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do not count towards the number of models in the army, but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers" (as @Bainbow said).

It is a high-risk high-reward move:
- if I have 10 models in play at the beginning, I choose not to summon and my enemy kills 5 of them, at the end of the game he will have killed a half of my army (50%).
- but if I have 10 models in play at the beginning, I choose to summon other 10 during battle and my enemy kills a total of 5 models, at the end of the game it will count as he had again killed a half of my army (50%)!

I think this is a brilliant way to balance summonig...
... balance which sadly is no more present the moment I summon a hero, wizard or monster, simply because it would count as 1 simple summoned model, but its impact on the game would be a lot bigger.

That's because I would suggest not to summon units with these keywords. :)

Rules say
"In the Mortal Realms battles are brutal and uncompromising – they are fought to the bitter end, with one side able to claim victory because it has destroyed its foe or there are no enemy models left on the fi eld of battle. The victor can immediately claim a major victory and the honours and triumphs that are due to them, while the defeated must repair to their lair to lick their wounds and bear the shame of failure."

So NOWHERE is said that
If your opponent starts with three models and then summons 100 more, you only need to kill three models in order to win because 3 is 100% of their starting army.
It is false.

What is written is
- IF a player has no more models on the table, he looses the battle.
- IF both players have some models on the table, it's possible to use percentages to calculate which player can claim a minor victory.
Of course, in this case your example would fit, but eliminating the 100% of the starting army does not mean an automatic win.

[My opinion, of course]
 
Bainbow said:
The limit we usually play with is that you can't summon anything you don't have on your list at the start of the game, basically it's a way of bringing back fallen units or starting out below the wound limit and using summoning to have an effect similar to how Chameleons appear out of nowhere. What keeps this balanced is that in order to win you don't need to table your opponent, you just need to score 125 wounds against them in a 125 wound game or 100 wounds in a 100 wound game, basically take out their starting allowance.

This is actually a rule in the main rulebook and people just don't read it. It's only four pages, come on! If you take out 100% of your enemy's starting forces, you win a major victory. If your opponent starts with three models and then summons 100 more, you only need to kill three models in order to win because 3 is 100% of their starting army. SUMMONING IS ALREADY BALANCED BY THIS, YOU DON'T NEED TO BALANCE IT FURTHER!

Of course in games involving certain objectives like the Quest For Gold that I shared with people, a constraint is needed because the win objective isn't to kill 100% of the enemy forces, it's to get the objective. The best method we've found for this is to give the non-summoning armies a higher wounds allowance, 130 Wounds in our case, and to give the summoners a smaller 100 Wounds. However over the course of the game, the summoners can summon more wounds than the non-summoners have, giving the non-summoners an early game advantage and the summoners a late game advantage. It balances out quite nicely.
Click to expand...

See I missed that rule in the very long rule book!
 
My poor memory acting up again, Freddy. I'll take it in my stride and own up to it.

But to be honest, all I feel the need to change there is my referral to winning a major victory to that of a minor victory.
 
Bainbow said:
The limit we usually play with is that you can't summon anything you don't have on your list at the start of the game
Click to expand...
so when you bring your army to the table you have already decreed the scope of your summoning... hmm interesting thought - do you play so that you can "heal" units that have taken casualties?

E.g. unit of 20 saurus - takes 12 wounds in a round of combat - next turn you cast 'summon saurus' and return 10 models that were slain to the fighting unit

Or would you only ever be able to summon a new unit and not expand/heal existing ones?

Freddy25 said:
The reason is very simple: the balancing factor given by the rules to the ability to summon is the following
"Models added to your army during the game (for example, through summoning, reinforcements, reincarnation and so on) do not count towards the number of models in the army, but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers" (as @Bainbow said).

It is a high-risk high-reward move:
- if I have 10 models in play at the beginning, I choose not to summon and my enemy kills 5 of them, at the end of the game he will have killed a half of my army (50%).
- but if I have 10 models in play at the beginning, I choose to summon other 10 during battle and my enemy kills a total of 5 models, at the end of the game it will count as he had again killed a half of my army (50%)!
Click to expand...

Sorry, I think I'm misreading this do not count towards the number of models in the army, but must be counted among the casualties an army suffers - so if you have 10 models - summon another 10 - you still have a 10 model army - then you lose 5 models - you have suffered 25% casualties, with 15 models in your 10 model army, even though the 10 models you started with may all be alive...

I must have that wrong somehow, even my brain knows the maths don't add up here (quite literally!)

Can you explain for me - maybe with bright colours to keep me entertained when my mind gives up!
 
You can't add to a unit, unfortunately. I read a special rule for Death that says you can add models to a unit or merge units, so my reasoning with my local group was that if you need a special rule to merge units/add models, then no one else can do this.

I can't stand limiting summoning in any way shape or form. I know a lot of people think AoS is an unfinished game that needs balancing because the rules are short and everything seems so plain, but I think that all of the rules were VERY well thought out, and very much intended the way they are written. I think that the fact that each unit has it's own summoning rules is balance enough, you already have to CAST summoning, it isn't something that's guaranteed; I've had PLENTY of failed summons. Summoning a Bastiladon and summoning skinks are hardly equal to each other, so why treat ALL summoning the same?

I have a limited collection; I have one full unit for nearly all the warscrolls, so my armies aren't "focused" lists, but more well rounded. If I had focused lists, I might get more wins with my group of friends, but so far the games have been pretty balanced. They don't limit my summoning in any way and we haven't had any problems; no one says I'm OP. I've also played games with my Slann and did just fine in that regard as well, but no where near as well as with summoning. Summoning is just such a huge part of our play style and I'm convinced GW wants you to play this way, JUST LIKE DEATH armies.
 
Bainbow said:
But to be honest, all I feel the need to change there is my referral to winning a major victory to that of a minor victory.
Click to expand...
Well, yes, but it's not that simple.
Let's see this case:
You, playing opposite to me, field 3 models, then summon 100.

- If you eliminate all of my units.
The battle immediatly ends and you claim a major victory.

- If you cannot eliminate all of my units.
The battle ends when do we want and we calculate the percentages for the minor victory.

Case A) I haven't summoned any models for my army.
In this case, I would only need to have killed at least 3 of your pieces to claim my minor victory, cause I would have caused
a loss of 100% or more to your army, while mine would be at least partially safe.

Case B) I have summoned some units (for example, I've initially fielded 5 models and summoned others).
In this case, we compare our losses.
It may happen that I kill more than 3 of your model (6 for example) and you kill more than 5 of my models (15 for example), so we should compare the percentages, having this result:
you have losses equal to 200% of your starting army, while I would have lost 300% of mine.
You could claim a minor victory.

All this to say that eliminating the 100% of the initial enemy model count doesn't automatically grants you a (minor) victory :)
But I agree with you about all the rest: I'd say both of us have perfectly understood how summons work!

I'll try to make this as much simple as I can in order to avoid confusion.

This rule means a simple thing: when two players play and their battle ends without a major victory they have to figure out who can claim a minor victory.
To do this, you have to calculate the percentage of models initially fielded with models slain during the battles (including the summoned ones).

So let's assume you originally field 10 models. This is your "starting models count".
During battle you summon 15 more models.
At the end of the battle, I've managed to kill 5 of your models.

The total percentage of your losses would be 50%, cause I would have killed 5 of your models while you initially started with 10!
Ok?

Anoher case: I start with 1 model and summon many others.
You kill 2 of my models. What would my losses percentage be?
200% is the answer, because killing two of my troops you would have slained the double of
my original model count! ;)

The main point is: it doesn't care how many models you have summoned.
The only 2 things that count are:
- how many models you have at the beginning of the battle
- how many models of yours have died during the entirety of the game

I hope I wrote everything clear... it's not simple when English is not your native language! :oops:
 
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I agree with @Bainbow! There is no need to limit summoning according to the rules... But I understand that people don't like it when you misuse it in some way and therefore add some restrictions...
I have no group (and time) to play regularly and so I stick with the rules the group I join is using....
Edit: Uhh! I am so late! Didn't klick the post button... Good point @Freddy25...
 
Freddy25 said:
To do this, you have to calculate the percentage of models initially fielded with models slain during the battles (including the summoned ones).
Click to expand...

Ahhhh - that's the cog my brain was missing - yep makes perfect sense now thanks :)
 
so what I'm reading here is a broad consensus that the ability to summon in a new unit of 20x saurus, 6x kroxigor, 3 salamanders, a bastiladon or even a carnosaur doesn't upset the balance of a game.

I'm trying to look at this from the prospective of someone who has comped summoning down - what do you guys think that having to declare what units you are going to attempt to summon, before the game starts?

So your opponent knows that if you summon you will try to summon either; a unit of saurus, or a unit of skinks, or 3 kroxigor, but they dont know when or in what order the summon will happen.
 
Gorgerak said:
so what I'm reading here is a broad consensus that the ability to summon in a new unit of 20x saurus, 6x kroxigor, 3 salamanders, a bastiladon or even a carnosaur doesn't upset the balance of a game.

I'm trying to look at this from the prospective of someone who has comped summoning down - what do you guys think that having to declare what units you are going to attempt to summon, before the game starts?

So your opponent knows that if you summon you will try to summon either; a unit of saurus, or a unit of skinks, or 3 kroxigor, but they dont know when or in what order the summon will happen.
Click to expand...
I don't think this is bad so long as you can summon each more than once rather than only getting three summons in the entire game. If yuo summon something and it dies, you should be able to resummon it. And you should be able to put down some of the units you're fielding normally to be summoned, giving you the ability to summon your fallen units back to life.
 
Bainbow said:
I don't think this is bad so long as you can summon each more than once rather than only getting three summons in the entire game. If yuo summon something and it dies, you should be able to resummon it. And you should be able to put down some of the units you're fielding normally to be summoned, giving you the ability to summon your fallen units back to life.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, summoning a model that has previously been killed is usually the first thing you are barred from doing.

Summoning a unit more than once is usually the second thing that it taken away from you.
 
Gorgerak said:
Unfortunately, summoning a model that has previously been killed is usually the first thing you are barred from doing.

Summoning a unit more than once is usually the second thing that it taken away from you.
Click to expand...
Yeah then that's bull and totally handicaps Vampires.
 
vampires tend to have an exception to the summoning dead models as its classed as resurrection or raising or similar, but for us its very clear, once a lizard is dead, it stays dead.
 
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