8th Ed. allies

[forlustria]

so with the recent rumour that there are gonna be set allies and it starts with vamps and tombkings . Who do you think will be lizardmen allies

 

[rychek]

Are you saying Vamps the Tomb Kings are going to be allies? I thought they hated each other....

 

[Ixt]

Nagash is trying to unite them (probably so he can have more mooks to die under his tyranny).

My Lizards will be taking Undead for sure. That's just my personal theme though.

Not sure which factions ordinary Lizards would ally on a whim, though. Slann are pretty stubborn.

Maybe High Elves. Possibly Wood?

I mean, our fluff is so isolatory to begin with... o.0

 

[teufelhund]

I think High Elves is most likely. We have the same magic after all.

 

[VampTeddy]

High elf's are the only really sensible choice.

We do help them from time to time, protecting the ancient seats of power.

We don't really communicate with them, or expect them to understand why we defend the tower's they built upon our sites near lustria, but there's at least one example in our books of a lizardmen host arriving shortly before an invasion, repelling the invaders, and dissapearing over a silvery magic bridge, without uttering a single word.

 

[Dancing with Saurus2]

As it's been said by previous posters High Elves seem to be the most logical ally based on the fluff and their mutual 'macro care taking' role in the Warhammer World. I wouldn't be surprised if Dwarves were included in the list as well as a pre-chaos/ancient/forces of order/old one created (?) race.

I would expect the human armies to be one 'group'. I'm not sure where Wood Elves (and maybe Ogres) would fit but seeing as the WE book is so recent I'd be surprised if they 'lost' their neutral tag so soon. On balance I'd have thought them more isolationist/forces of order army. They've got a lot to lose by a huge amount of upheaval.

 

[Scalenex]

Bah! It's a lot more fun to come up with elaborate justifications for two armies fighting side by side you wouldn't expect!

 

[VampTeddy]

Bah! It's a lot more fun to come up with elaborate justifications for two armies fighting side by side you wouldn't expect!

That's why the therm "desperate allies" is so awesome.

In the grand scheme of things, some of the better examples are from 40K and the joining together by the Necrons and Blood angels to defeat a tyranid splinter fleet.

Any alliance can come to surface if two weaker parties are assaulted by a third larger party. It would even be possible for the slann to ally (temporarily) with the foul machinations of chaos, if it were to defend something great, from a grand army of infidels.

 

[Drmooreflava]

The Problem with Warhammer Fantasy is that the fluff has built in wars between nearly every single race.

Lizardmen take no allies as far as I see it. They are the children of the Old Ones! Pride IS an issue!

Lizardmen are as likely to have allies as the Skaven or Os&Gs who fight within their own race more than they fight other races, not to mention their nefarious betrayals when they do find an allies with another race...

Even IF TK and VC become allies, who else will ally with them? Nobody. "Ded tings stink" -Observant Orc

Are you telling me Elf races might ally? Why not just put them all in the same book then? Like the DoC/WoC.

Bretts and Empire have allied in dire straights; however, that is as big of a gimme as it gets for alliances. "Oh these two human races can be allies" -Said an averagely intelligent GW employee. Besides, Empire does everything better than Brets with the exception of busing characters into combat.

Ogres are born and bred Dogs of War. They fit "neutral" if there is such a thing in Warhammer Fantasy.

Beastmen are nothing but mutants manipulated by the chaos Gods, I could see them as easy allies to DoC/WoC but will anyone ever run a Beastmen army as a main when a BETTER army can just pick and choose what they like from Beastmen AKA minotaurs and harpies.

Dwarfs as allies? Are there any races they don't hold a grudge against? According to current AB rules, NO, they have the opportunity to have hatred any given army in any given battle. It'd be absurd... Absolute shenanigans I say!

Must I continue to list the absolute hypocrisy of a "Large Scale", "Generalized" allies system in Warhammer Fantasy Battle?

However, IF we take the time to look at it from a sales perspective, GW will surely wreck the past 20+ years of awesome fluff in order to see a sales increase across all boards BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. Warhammer in the eyes of GW is about profit, not about maintaining a streamlined plot within an imaginary world let alone maintaining any sort of integrity in the eyes of their longest standing players.

 

[Drmooreflava]

Bah! It's a lot more fun to come up with elaborate justifications for two armies fighting side by side you wouldn't expect!

That's why the therm "desperate allies" is so awesome.

In the grand scheme of things, some of the better examples are from 40K and the joining together by the Necrons and Blood angels to defeat a tyranid splinter fleet.

Any alliance can come to surface if two weaker parties are assaulted by a third larger party. It would even be possible for the slann to ally (temporarily) with the foul machinations of chaos, if it were to defend something great, from a grand army of infidels.

Does something this desperate happen every day in Warhammer Fantasy? You forget that 40k takes place across the universe while Warhammer fantasy takes place on one planet with very limited geography.

 

[spawning of Bob]

Lizardmen take no allies as far as I see it. They are the children of the Old Ones! Pride IS an issue!

Lizardmen are as likely to have allies as the Skaven or O&Gs who fight within their own race more than they fight other races, not to mention their nefarious betrayals when they do find an allies with another race...

I say read any of Scalenex's fluff - In this interpretation, the Slann are divided into factions over the appropriate path to the Great Plan's fulfilment.

Faction A: Younger , orderly races were made by the Old Ones (Elf, Dwarf, Man) They should stop being so darn disorderly, so we (the First) can get on with sorting out the evil factions. If they need correction, so be it!

Faction B (Merestar et al of Malodorex): The Old Ones made younger races for SOME reason. Maybe we could use them to assist in eradicating Chaos and restoring the Great Plan. For that matter we will make use of ANY weaker race to get us there. The end justifies the means.

The Cold, Cold Slann are willing to use / abandon anyone (including Lizardmen) on their way to their inscrutable ends.

Based on these ideas, I say they could ally with every one.

And a 'No Slann army' should have restrictions (no forces of true Disorder = Beasts, WoC, DoC. As for DE, they would be likely to have more issues AGAINST LM than LM against DE. Apart from the much cooler Cold One models thing. Grrr.)




A Spawning of Bob grand alliance is a different matter.

The Great Plan is supreme. Faith in it is unassailable.

Therefore Bob et al act according to 'what feels right at the time' and assume that THAT it will be automatically compatible with the Old Ones' will, on the basis that the Spawning of Bob is obviously a unique and chosen spawning. Obviously.

Bob will infiltrate / subvert / ally with ANYONE. And miraculously escape the consequences.

Lizardman Faction B in the Bob universe assume that the Plan will correct itself soon (please) and that the erratic Legions of Los'tmabo'tl will soon be swallowed by a earthquake-born crack in the Earth. Or Hellfire. Or Lightning bolts. (Please....)



Fluff beats logic whenever required!

I think it is easier for LM to handle than, say, my Grumpy dwarf friend who foamed at the mouth about Dwarf and DoC Sorcerous Pacts. Like the Beer Smelling Grudge Monkeys are so virtuous.....

 

[Drmooreflava]

Thanks for supporting my position. Lizardmen can hardly ally with each other let alone other races (like most races). Therefore, they should not have any legit allies. It would be an incredible stretch to make an allies system; however, money talks.

99% of battles are not even close to epic in warhammer fantasy. IMO 2500 pt battles are pretty weak in comparison to what is described in fluff battles.

Allies rules for multi-player battles don't even need to exist. The real issue is if people can bring units from multiple army books in one army. Certain units are costed the certain way they are based upon their cohesive existence within their own army book, not within the meta of all army books.

Anybody who could ally with lizardmen could just spam skinks unless there is an incredibly strict system of what can be taken by allies and what cannot be taken. Skinks are core, even skrox are core. Is that even legit? Srsly, skinks borderline best chaff in game could be used as allies to other armies? WHAT? why even play lizardmen if you could just take their skinks instead of actually playing lizardmen?

In a complex analysis of financial perspective, the smaller armies of Warhammer fantasy will become extinct due to an open allies system. Nobody will play the eccentric armies such as lizards, beastmen etc because they can just take their good units and skip the rest of the army. To make a balanced allies system, GW would have to rewrite every army book. This would be completely contrary to everything GW has done with 8th edition which has balanced every army book in comparison to one another. If they suddenly let people pick and choose models from different allies, it will inevitably break the system they have spent years building.

So, Allies could be good or bad for Warhammer Fantasy. Regardless, LARGE changes to all meta will be involved if allies penetrate competitive and casual play. If GW keeps asking us to pay an extra $60 for a book with rules for extra monster models ($60+) and extra campaign rules, like they did with storm of magic, it won't sit because it isn't a new edition.

Now a Dogs of War book... That would be something welcomed by all players because it could be extremely specific in what mercenary models can be taken and at what pts cost which could be a penalty in comparison to their original army book point cost. For example ogre bulls might cost more points because skaven can't take monstrous infantry and a horde of ogre bulls would be insane in some of the shooting/magic spam lists skaven can put together.

In the end, whatever happens, it needs to be balanced or it could kill the game. This Nagash hubbub is just a "flavor of the month" anyway.

 

[VampTeddy]

Bah! It's a lot more fun to come up with elaborate justifications for two armies fighting side by side you wouldn't expect!

That's why the therm "desperate allies" is so awesome.

In the grand scheme of things, some of the better examples are from 40K and the joining together by the Necrons and Blood angels to defeat a tyranid splinter fleet.

Any alliance can come to surface if two weaker parties are assaulted by a third larger party. It would even be possible for the slann to ally (temporarily) with the foul machinations of chaos, if it were to defend something great, from a grand army of infidels.

Does something this desperate happen every day in Warhammer Fantasy? You forget that 40k takes place across the universe while Warhammer fantasy takes place on one planet with very limited geography.

I never stated it happens everyday, i stated it could happen, which it can.

The afore-mentioned necrons example happened once in the history of 40K, and necrons have been in that universe for a length of years (in regards to mankind) similar to lizardmen in fantasy, some millenia. Offcourse the world is larger, but it's also more spread out, with planets belonging to a single entity, where in fantasy it's a mix of races in the world.

I'm personally not much into giving my own LM any allies, and i do agree that we're one of the races that makes the least sense to ally with, but in all honesty i believe it COULD happen, if Lustria, or some greater temple city were to fall and we could not solve the issue alone, i don't think we'd be too blinded to seek aid from those who were willing to help, no matter their alignment,.

 

[Mr Phat]

"
Wood Elves lord: Hey Lizard people!

Slann: What is it man in green dress?

WEL: Those chaos guys burned down Athel Loren, there is maggots in the great tree and all..

Slann: oh, thats so sad to hear!

WEL: sure is! ...and thats why ...uhm..

Slann: ...yes? what is it?

WEL: its just...we know you dont really like chaos neither....and we kinda like your jungle.....so..uhm

Slann: yes, come on come on, out with it now!

WEL: You see....we kinda...if its not too much trouble....kinda thought...that maybe we could kinda move in with you guys?

Slann: .......

WEL: We know the same lores man! our LVL2 mages can even take all of them! ..besides you guys really need some ranged loving dont you?


Slann: .....you got a point....but I want you to say praise be to the old ones ...

WEL: ....Sorry?

Slann: you heard me...say it...

WEL: ..*Sigh*..fiiiiiiNE! Praise be... to the old ones...
.
Slann: like you mean it!

WEL: ALL RIGHT! PRAISE BE TO THE OLD ONES!!

Slann: GREAT! ... you can have the western pyramid....its a little dusty as I haven't concluded who the old ones would have wanted to dust it off yet..

WEL: No problem with me...I used to live in a tree house

Slann: In that case! welcome to Xhi'ti Chi'ty ! enjoy your stay

WEL: Thanks bro!

*Both brofists*



........there.........see? fluff cures all...now we got Jungle Elves.

 

[Tecuani]

Personally, I see lizardmen more as an 'ally with anyone for as long as they're useful' faction than an 'ally with nobody' faction. They only genuinely care about the great plan, and if furthering their own goals related to that plan involves manipulating the younger races, they will. Also, let's not forget that it's a (very)long-term plan, and the slann are schemers, so even races eventually due to be removed may serve a shorter term purpose.

 

[Kblock]

Personally, I see lizardmen more as an 'ally with anyone for as long as they're useful' faction than an 'ally with nobody' faction. They only genuinely care about the great plan, and if furthering their own goals related to that plan involves manipulating the younger races, they will. Also, let's not forget that it's a (very)long-term plan, and the slann are schemers, so even races eventually due to be removed may serve a shorter term purpose.

If allies do make it into the WHF, I think this makes the most sense for Lizardmen. We will have to wait to see how the rules are set for allies.

Personally, I would rather have a bigger Lizardmen army than fight with allies, but that is just me.