Cold One
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AoS Age of Sigmar Rumours - Mk II. (Our new name)
- Thread starter Mr Phat
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Skink Chief
Qupakoco
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I guess I don't see how this is supposed to boost revenue. They are giving away the rules for existing models for free. Doesn't that mean that I don't need to buy anything?
What is going on at GW, lol.
What is going on at GW, lol.
Scar-Veteran
Pinktaco
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If I'm not mistakening they're a miniature company and actually don't care about the game. Didn't they say that at one point?
Chameleon Skink
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Two theories: 1) Smaller games encourages us veterans to branch out to new armies. For example. I now have a greater incentive to make a small-scale Bretonnia army, where before I was uncertain about making a big one. 1b) New players will have the same thought about their first army. 2) I doubt the Stormborn Eternals are the last new model line. I'd bet we see loads more in the coming months. Like lizardpeople with jetpacks and lightsabers (I hope I hope I hope).
EDIT: 3) Maybe they just want to be nice for once (siiiiiiigh...)
Terradon
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I imagine it's just a way to placate veteran players for now and GW will figure out a way to empty vet's wallets later.
Skink Chief
Qupakoco
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Cruised through the new rules...
Bases don't mean anything anymore. Everything is measured from the model itself. So if your spear sticks out, that's a part of you.
Also the "pile in" rule seems like something that would be an advantage for square bases. Most of our models are almost touching anyway, so our Saurus can maximize the number of models in combat. Then again you could put them on Skink bases and really create some havoc. No supporting attacks, just full attacks if you're close enough.
Adopting a skirmish formation while out of combat would decrease damage from templates (if they exist) and also get rid of all those wheeling rules. Flip side of the coin is that now we don't get flank attacks.
Gonna be interesting. Still partial to Oldhammer, but I want to see the scrolls for my Lizards.
EDIT: Will Skrox even be a thing anymore? Can units be inside other units? Graaaaa!!!! Very distracting from the dice order, lol.
Bases don't mean anything anymore. Everything is measured from the model itself. So if your spear sticks out, that's a part of you.
Also the "pile in" rule seems like something that would be an advantage for square bases. Most of our models are almost touching anyway, so our Saurus can maximize the number of models in combat. Then again you could put them on Skink bases and really create some havoc. No supporting attacks, just full attacks if you're close enough.
Adopting a skirmish formation while out of combat would decrease damage from templates (if they exist) and also get rid of all those wheeling rules. Flip side of the coin is that now we don't get flank attacks.
Gonna be interesting. Still partial to Oldhammer, but I want to see the scrolls for my Lizards.
EDIT: Will Skrox even be a thing anymore? Can units be inside other units? Graaaaa!!!! Very distracting from the dice order, lol.
I hereby declare this great Predatory Fighter debate... over.
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Pinktaco
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Don't assume anything resembling LM will be part of the new game especially not something like skrox units. New game, new rules and of course new stats
Skink
still-young
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So there's actually no balancing mechanic... Even if we did say 'a ten scroll game', there's no upper limit to unit sizes so I could just have 10 units of 100 chaos warriors or something stupid. I don't get how anyone would think a game with no way of balancing the two forces against each other is a good idea..?
Chameleon Skink
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Wall of Text ahead. TL;DR, this lack of army-composition regulation is super weird, but small armies might actually have a chance against enormous cheeseballs, and the situation might actually benefit the veterans... but I don't know yet if I want to play.
---
I'm going to deliberately dust off my rose-colored glasses, don them, and opine on something I saw related (in much more colourful language) in the comments on another site. My concerns about no restrictions on unit size *might* be a little premature:
I say this because of the "Sudden Death Table." I won't dare re-type it here, but it's in the links in this thread. If you're outnumbered by 33% of your army or more, apparently at the start of the game, then you gain access to certain "Sudden Death" victory conditions, which look far easier than actually beating your opponent the old fashioned way. One of these in particular, "Endure," might be a Dwarf player's dream come true, or "Seize Ground" for the one weirdo who brings just a team of ten carnosaurs to the party. A focused team that anticipates, even desires, being outnumbered, might actually be competitive.
So, small armies may actually have a competitive chance.
Additionally, a nuanced reading of the "Army" and "Set-Up" sections suggests to me that your potential army is your whole collection. You do not appear to be bound by a previously constructed "list." I say this because "your army" appears to be defined by what you actually deploy in Set-Up (where it says "This is your army."), not anything that you announced beforehand. You can deploy whatever parts of that collection you want, reacting to your opponent's alternating deployments, and you aren't required to deploy the whole collection. This adds a layer of potential depth and, uh, "maskirovka," for lack of a better word, that was previously unknown to us. For example, you could deceive your opponent into thinking you're going to eventually deploy a lot of war machines, so they bring in otherwise-useless countermeasures, but then you never deploy your WMs, and your opponent hates your guts
(I actually hope I've misunderstood this part because it would be a total dick move, but I can see it being fun for some gamers who agree on it in advance.)
./takes off the glasses.
I'm still worried, because this is totally unknown territory - I don't know if these special win conditions are actually that easy. Also, I can still imagine outlandish matchups. For example - nothing in my reading suggests that you have to stop placing units when your opponent does. The rules currently permit you to keep going until your opponent is so outnumbered that nothing they have matters. Developing that capability may be prohibitively expensive for most players, but it still looks rules-legal right now.
Also, I don't need to be outnumbered by 33% to be at a fatal disadvantage. From harsh experience, I know that losing 200 points, out of a 2500 point army, on Turn One to a war machine, frequently means I lose the game. If my opponent has fifty war machines, claiming (and currently, rightly) this is rules-legal, then... I would be unhappy.
Anyway, one last note, this army-building arrangement, looked at in the bleakest light, might actually benefit the veterans. You guys often speak of your collections of twenty-one Kroxigors, or seven carnosaurs, eight stegadons, fifteen ripperdactyls, or untold hundreds of skinks. If that whole collection is potentially your army, what newbie with a starter set will be able to match you, even with special win conditions?
Put another way, in this bizarre new world, if I've understood the rules right, veterans are no longer the newbie's plausible battlefield equals - they are unrivaled superpowers with impossibly vast reserves of manpower and materiel. It's not just that a starter army is inflexible; in the proper meta it is always hopelessly outgunned (absent some kind of kind-hearted agreement).
All that said, I totally understand if veterans don't want to play this. I'm still kinda queasy myself. I rather hope I've misread something, or that the rules we've seen are incomplete. Oh, and the warscrolls for existing models could totally blow chunks. That would be disheartening too.
---
I'm going to deliberately dust off my rose-colored glasses, don them, and opine on something I saw related (in much more colourful language) in the comments on another site. My concerns about no restrictions on unit size *might* be a little premature:
I say this because of the "Sudden Death Table." I won't dare re-type it here, but it's in the links in this thread. If you're outnumbered by 33% of your army or more, apparently at the start of the game, then you gain access to certain "Sudden Death" victory conditions, which look far easier than actually beating your opponent the old fashioned way. One of these in particular, "Endure," might be a Dwarf player's dream come true, or "Seize Ground" for the one weirdo who brings just a team of ten carnosaurs to the party. A focused team that anticipates, even desires, being outnumbered, might actually be competitive.
So, small armies may actually have a competitive chance.
Additionally, a nuanced reading of the "Army" and "Set-Up" sections suggests to me that your potential army is your whole collection. You do not appear to be bound by a previously constructed "list." I say this because "your army" appears to be defined by what you actually deploy in Set-Up (where it says "This is your army."), not anything that you announced beforehand. You can deploy whatever parts of that collection you want, reacting to your opponent's alternating deployments, and you aren't required to deploy the whole collection. This adds a layer of potential depth and, uh, "maskirovka," for lack of a better word, that was previously unknown to us. For example, you could deceive your opponent into thinking you're going to eventually deploy a lot of war machines, so they bring in otherwise-useless countermeasures, but then you never deploy your WMs, and your opponent hates your guts
(I actually hope I've misunderstood this part because it would be a total dick move, but I can see it being fun for some gamers who agree on it in advance.)./takes off the glasses.
I'm still worried, because this is totally unknown territory - I don't know if these special win conditions are actually that easy. Also, I can still imagine outlandish matchups. For example - nothing in my reading suggests that you have to stop placing units when your opponent does. The rules currently permit you to keep going until your opponent is so outnumbered that nothing they have matters. Developing that capability may be prohibitively expensive for most players, but it still looks rules-legal right now.
Also, I don't need to be outnumbered by 33% to be at a fatal disadvantage. From harsh experience, I know that losing 200 points, out of a 2500 point army, on Turn One to a war machine, frequently means I lose the game. If my opponent has fifty war machines, claiming (and currently, rightly) this is rules-legal, then... I would be unhappy.
Anyway, one last note, this army-building arrangement, looked at in the bleakest light, might actually benefit the veterans. You guys often speak of your collections of twenty-one Kroxigors, or seven carnosaurs, eight stegadons, fifteen ripperdactyls, or untold hundreds of skinks. If that whole collection is potentially your army, what newbie with a starter set will be able to match you, even with special win conditions?
Put another way, in this bizarre new world, if I've understood the rules right, veterans are no longer the newbie's plausible battlefield equals - they are unrivaled superpowers with impossibly vast reserves of manpower and materiel. It's not just that a starter army is inflexible; in the proper meta it is always hopelessly outgunned (absent some kind of kind-hearted agreement).
All that said, I totally understand if veterans don't want to play this. I'm still kinda queasy myself. I rather hope I've misread something, or that the rules we've seen are incomplete. Oh, and the warscrolls for existing models could totally blow chunks. That would be disheartening too.
The tin foil hat no longer seems to be deflecting rumours
, the information is coming thick and fast and are pretty well backed up now.
TBH I'll just go with whatever my local gaming group goes with. I love all the models I've collected so there's no regret there and I'm sure there will be something that fills the 8th Edition Warhammer void.
, the information is coming thick and fast and are pretty well backed up now.TBH I'll just go with whatever my local gaming group goes with. I love all the models I've collected so there's no regret there and I'm sure there will be something that fills the 8th Edition Warhammer void.
Skink Priest
pendrake
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...armor save failed..?
Chameleon Skink
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Maybe "Ok, I roll a ward save... oh... I, uh, don't actually have a ward save..."
Scar-Veteran
Pinktaco
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I have to be honest - the more I read the more I'm both dissapointed and pleased. At least now my group won't be split. We might try out this game just for giggles because *derp* free rules, but otherwise I see no reason for us to go there.
We played WHF for the following reason:
I'm disappointed because to me the perfect solution would've been to create a small scale skirmish game that would lead people into a proper 9th edition version with refined rules. Free rules could've been part of it. Remember how ASF on charge and +1S when being charged and wielding spears got us all warm and fuzzy inside? I wanted THAT to happen. WHF already work as a game. Things could've changed without an entirely new game. Solutions to their problems could've been found.
GW is just proving yet again they don't care about us and this is also why I cannot stop, but laughing at anyone supporting this.. thing. No offense guys, but this is GW going full money mode as a business. You're not even costumers to them, you're just cows waiting to be milked.
Even worse is that I've seen people on warseer claiming it was our own fault: "If you didn't create ETC/Swedish comp GW would've never thrown balance out the window with their new game and hope for the community to pick it up!". WHAT? That's the most ridiculous thing ever.
The way I see it: AoS is a way to play with your dolls and not actually be engaged in. For me the entire list building tihng was a huge part of WHF and could have me thinking for hours, but that's not the goal of this game. Pick whatever dolls you have and throw some dice randomly. It resembles a game and sure there'll eventually be some depth to it. People will eventually figure out a way to make it work even if they have to rewrite half the rules, but I don't honestly care.
AoS will be a good game if you have absolutely no connection to the dolls. For me the fluff, rules, stats, items and armies are all part of what made WHF brilliant to begin with, but if you're only interested in specific models and nothing else well.. Then you're the perfect costumer for GW.
The biggest question for me though is: Can the community pick up 8th edition and continue? I doubt it, but we'll see.
PS: I'm not super pissed. I might sound all kinds of doom and gloomy, but this is just my perspective. You're welcome to disagree, but GW have done nothing at all to let me think otherwise.
We played WHF for the following reason:
- Specific armies with restrictions.
- Unique models and items belonging to those "restricted" armies.
- The option to costumize your heroes/lords, the option to chose a magic lore and let it support the rest of your army.
- Good and mostly balanced rules including army books. Yes there are OP units/items, but that's managable.
- More importantly it was massed battled with ranked unit. We all found that to look awesome and made us more creative so our untis stuck out.
- Magic being a mini-game itself.
I'm disappointed because to me the perfect solution would've been to create a small scale skirmish game that would lead people into a proper 9th edition version with refined rules. Free rules could've been part of it. Remember how ASF on charge and +1S when being charged and wielding spears got us all warm and fuzzy inside? I wanted THAT to happen. WHF already work as a game. Things could've changed without an entirely new game. Solutions to their problems could've been found.
GW is just proving yet again they don't care about us and this is also why I cannot stop, but laughing at anyone supporting this.. thing. No offense guys, but this is GW going full money mode as a business. You're not even costumers to them, you're just cows waiting to be milked.
Even worse is that I've seen people on warseer claiming it was our own fault: "If you didn't create ETC/Swedish comp GW would've never thrown balance out the window with their new game and hope for the community to pick it up!". WHAT? That's the most ridiculous thing ever.
The way I see it: AoS is a way to play with your dolls and not actually be engaged in. For me the entire list building tihng was a huge part of WHF and could have me thinking for hours, but that's not the goal of this game. Pick whatever dolls you have and throw some dice randomly. It resembles a game and sure there'll eventually be some depth to it. People will eventually figure out a way to make it work even if they have to rewrite half the rules, but I don't honestly care.
AoS will be a good game if you have absolutely no connection to the dolls. For me the fluff, rules, stats, items and armies are all part of what made WHF brilliant to begin with, but if you're only interested in specific models and nothing else well.. Then you're the perfect costumer for GW.
The biggest question for me though is: Can the community pick up 8th edition and continue? I doubt it, but we'll see.
PS: I'm not super pissed. I might sound all kinds of doom and gloomy, but this is just my perspective. You're welcome to disagree, but GW have done nothing at all to let me think otherwise.
Chameleon Skink
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Despite my attempts at optimism, this is approximately how I feel.
I think it would be silly to *not* try the game out, for the precise reason you identify
However, I have yet to see something that made me want to buy things, and just now I deliberately bought the last two models I wanted second-hand off eBay, just to avoid giving GW the misimpression that I was supporting this seismic shift.Maybe a month from now I'll be genuinely enthusiastic. Maybe this game will be fun! But for now, enthusiasm takes more effort than I can maintain forever.
Skink Priest
pendrake
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Write your own scrolls? Do mods as you see fit. Act like a paying customer.
I really thought that is what they would do. And maybe they will eventually, anyway. There could be something on the 'cutting room floor' that the marketing gurus/IP lawyers have decided to axe ... for now.
If I must be thought of as a domesticated animal then I prefer "sheep that is tired of being fleeced". And, BTW a customer = buys products; a costumer = makes costumes; a customizer = makes one of a kind models or does custom work. I know: Pesky, tricksey, vowels ... best to get them sorted.
In agreement. If GW is not selling enough stuff it is because they don't make a sufficiently appealing product.
Ummm. How is that again?
Not agreeing much here. Why did you like the list building exactly?
_________
But as I have been saying all along... Lizardhammer ...maybe the time has come.
Skink Priest
pendrake
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Would you feel more encouraged if the starter box had included more models for some of the older factions?
A pair of Lizards
An Orc; a Goblin
A Bret knight, An Empire knight
A couple of Wights/dead things
A pair of rats
Two new Ogres
A pair or Norscans
Some elfses
instead of
Five of the Board and Anvil Siggy guys
and Ten less Chaos guys.
About the same model count, but more variety.
Skink Chief
Qupakoco
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I like list building. It gives you the opportunity to make your army unique. You make your own characters, units of your own size, give it a theme or do some minmaxing on it. This is always a fun part for me too.
With AoS as far as we know you just get to pick how many you want.
With AoS as far as we know you just get to pick how many you want.
Slann
NIGHTBRINGER
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You're definitely not the only one. There is no chance of me leaving 8th edition for this sorry excuse of game.
I remember reading that too.
To be honest it could have been worse (speaking of the situation... not the game, which looks to be about as bad as it could be). While I was hoping for a really solid 9th edition, my biggest fear was the release of a mediocre edition that fragmented the community. AoS looks to be terrible, so there is a greater chance that more folks will stick with 8th. I know that many people will move on from 8th, but my hope is that a significant number stay behind and keep it alive.