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8th Ed. A More Competitive List

Skaven Slave

SkinkyPants

Clan Rictus
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After my all Skinks list got absolutely shat on, I'll propose a new list. Again, I'm a complete newbie to Warhammer Fantasy, so if there's anything really stupid in here, please let me know. Additional critique and criticism most welcome!

Lords: 340 pts
Slann - Focused Rumination, Higher State of Consciousness, P of Tepok, Lore of Life

Heroes: 443 pts
Skink Priest - Lvl 2
3 x Scar Veterans - 1 BSB + Amulet of Itzel, LA, Great Weapons

Core: 739 pts

20 x Skink Skirmishers (Skink Priest here)
24 x Skinks, 3 x Kroxigors - SB, Musician, Skink Brave
22 x Saurus Warriors - Champion, SB, Musician, 20 Spears (Scar Vets here)

Special: 198

5x Chameleons - Stalker
5x Chameleons - Stalker
5x Chameleons - Stalker

Rare: 280

3 x Salamander Pack - 3 extra handlers

Total: 2,000 pts
 
Hey man, couple things. First off, one loss doesnt make a bad list, sometimes the dice and the terrain just arent in your favor man.

Regarding the list, I think it has a lot of fat you can cut. First off, drop the stalkers from the chameleons, you are better off with more skinks. Also salamanders are best in small groups so the opponent needs to spread out their focus and you have additional small units to threaten him with, I would split them into:
unit of 1 salamander with extra handler
unit of 2 salamanders

Generally when i have units of 2 salamanders I find I dont need the extra handlers since they can eat each others skinks. I have only once ever lost all 6 skinks before losing my salamanders, and that was because a comet fell on them.

That is the fat you can cut, from here I will give my opinions, things that work with my playstyle that you can consider.

You could split the 20 skirmishers into 2 units of 10, that will give your priest plenty of bodies to hide behind for LOS, and it will make them more maneuverable. Plus they can only fire in 2 ranks, and getting a unit of skinks 10 wide and 2 deep within 6 inches of an enemy unit is impossible.

Saurus with spears are fine, and normally they need to be very deep in order to take advantage of them. Since you have 3 scar vets taking the hits in the front rank, the saurus will probably survive to hit back which is pretty cool. I would still try to make it a little deeper though.

Where is your slann going? Lore of life is ideal with temple guard or stegadons, and it wouldnt be aweful for your scar vet block if he going to go in the second rank. If he is going to hang out outside of the block I would look at beast, light, or shadow.

Finally, scar vets are good, scar vets pimped out with magic items are better. If you are strapped for points even small things like ironcurse icon and venom of the firefly frog are good.
 
skillfull_dan said:
Where is your slann going? Lore of life is ideal with temple guard or stegadons, and it wouldnt be aweful for your scar vet block if he going to go in the second rank.
Click to expand...

Since it's regular saurus warriors, the Slann would have to go in the front rank ... not a good thing.
 
Thanks for the feedback!

Yeah, I actually added most of those upgrades because I had some spare points, and wasn't sure if magic items would be the better route to take - I guess I could bulk up the Saurus line instead. It would be hard to deck out all 3 Scar Vets (I guess I went with quantity over quality), but I'll look into a few cheaper upgrades.

I here ya on the Slann, but was gonna have him chill behind the line of Saurus/ Scar Vets. With Higher Consciousness, not much can really hurt him, and with life he can always regenerate wounds that do. Mostly I want him to buff the 3 scar vets to T 7, / Saurus T 6 so that they can provide a hammer and anvil type roll. The rest of my army is fast, so that it can redirect and hit flanks.

I'll definitely break up the Salamander and Skinkishers - I was thinking about doing this anyway, so thanks for the confirmation! I'll try the Slann solo for a few games and see how the lore goes.
 
Another problem with Life on a Slann outside a unit is that the spell giving Regen to the unit he's with becomes useless.
 
Dyvim Tvar said:
skillfull_dan said:
Where is your slann going? Lore of life is ideal with temple guard or stegadons, and it wouldnt be aweful for your scar vet block if he going to go in the second rank.
Click to expand...
Since it's regular saurus warriors, the Slann would have to go in the front rank ... not a good thing.
Click to expand...
Actually... Lol

We've had this pop up occasionally. If the front rank of a unit has no more space due to command+characters, extra characters are pushed to the second rank. You can run a unit of Saurus 5-wide, Full Command, 1 Scar-Vet, and a Slann. Then you just plop the froggy in the second rank due to the lack of space. I think the rule is called "No More Room!" but I could be wrong.

And yah, Life Slann would do better in a unit rather than solo.
 
True-that is a way to shove him back, but it's not that hard to kill a champ. If you use 2 armored-up Scar Vets the frog should be able to stay back longer.
 
Hey mate, First off I'd echo the sentiment that only one game is not enough to know if an army is good or bad if you're not already familiar with the game. My focus at this stage of just starting would be to experiment with a wide variety of unit types so you understand yourself what does what. Nevertheless my thoughts on the list:

1. Lore of Life is a sub-par lore for a Slann as it forces you into placing him in a block due to it's defensive nature. You've given him ethereal which is good, that and good play means you can safely run him outside of blocks, giving you more manoeuvrability. I like to run mine in Skirmisher units so that I can use unlimited reforms to flick him into position. Back to lore, I like Death or Metal as it allows you to hit targets the rest of your army sucks at (Armour for example).

2. As mentioned Stalkers are a waste of points.

3. Split the 20 Skink Skirmishers into two units. Also give them Jav/Shield, some might disagree but in my opinion it's easily worth the extra point.

4. Again some will disagree, but I think Skrox are trash unless you're rolling a Light Slann.

5. Split the Sallies.

6. Skink Priests are great but L2 is a waste imo, I use mine as scroll caddies (Dispel scrolls are auto-include) and redirectors at a pinch. If you're Scar Vets aren't using it consider a dragonbane gem so that he can tarpit a flaming character.

7. Scar Vets - Look up the Scar Vets tactica in the tactics forum. I personally never use Scar Vets on foot and no army (skink cloud or Part Light Saurus) ever doesn't have two Scar Vet Cowboys.

I can't stress enough though that you just have to play lots of games and read battle reports. There are good batreps on this site but if you go to www.warhammer.org.uk and go to battle reports you'll find a guy called Swordmasters HE battle reports. These are excellent and while not involving lizards (usually) they are a great way to see in detail how the game works at a competitive level.

Cheers. Jeff
 
I actually never played the list, but wanted to use Skink Chiefs to keep it Skink. That basically laughed its way out of the army.

Thanks for the all the advice! I guess I mostly need to get some games under my belt - I've read / watched a number of battle reports and looked at some Skink Cloud lists, but I'll figure out my tactics as my game develops. I will definitely start with the recommendations!

Jeff, I know we're chatting in 2 posts, but why do you think Skink Krox are trash, and how do you use Skink Cohorts effectively without the extra hitting power? I guess without the Krox, I only have one block of Saurus left, and I'm actually tempted to remove them entirely if I turn the Scar Vets into solo Cowboys. It just seems a little odd to have NO combat blocks to provide a hammer/ anvil type roll.

Bests,
Brian
 
I think that without Lore of Light to get buffs off that they don't put out enough damage for what you pay for them. Consider that the skinks hit like a paper towel and you have 3 WS3 Kroxigor which cost more than a Man-eater each who will get 9 S6 attacks. They'll miss half of those so probably only do 4 wounds. The problem is you're paying 297 points for a unit that can only do 4 wounds while getting butchered in the process due to low WS and T of skinks. Sure your Krox will stick around until the end, but the end will come very quickly as you lose every combat and quite quickly steadfast. Using the Lore of Light fixes a lot of these problems thanks to the lore's buff. Otherwise you just don't get enough out of them. Their low T problems are also a huge vulnerability to templates. It's neither an effective Hammer or Anvil in my opinion.

Skink Cohorts are their to add their shots in to get those poisons off but more importantly as:

1. Cheap deployments to out-deploy your opponent.
2. More poisoned shots
3. Cheap so you can redirect or throw them away to get a better table position.
4. Can help double flee and rally on ld 7 (w/muso) independently of the Slann
5. Mini-bunkers to hop between for the Slann.

As for the Hammer/Anvil issue. I feel that this is a basic way of looking at warhammer. While it might have been true at the beginning of 8th edition (when it apparently became hordehammer). The newer armies work much better with multiple medium units that can move quickly and hit the one weak point, leaving infantry blocks too small and static to compete effectively. In my local scene at least, 3 Horde armies are finding it almost impossible to compete against faster more mobile armies that can hit in the place of their choosing.

In the specific example of a skink cloud lacking hammers and anvils I look at the Saurus as an anvil (once they get into a building) and the Scar Vets as able to perform both to an extent. The brilliance of the list though is that it generally makes most of the points your opponent put into close combat wasted. It doesn't matter if 5 Empire knights or 5 Demigryphs hit 10 skinks, they're dead either way. So yeah in summary, Warhammer can be looked at through the lens of hammer/anvil but I don't think that these equate to big blocks of infantry in either case. My party Metal Slann can take armies off if the winds are good, does he count as a hammer?

Sorry for the late reply, I was umpiring a tourney over the weekend.

Cheers. Jeff
 
No worries Jeff, thanks for the elaborate response.

That makes more sense, I was under the impression that the Cohorts were there to engage in combat after throwing their javelins. Question though, wouldn't more skirmishers be the better route to take then, as they have a longer range, 2x shots, and can march and shoot? The only real advantage I see for the Cohort is the musio and the 2 point reduction (yeah they have a shield, but it seems kind of meh to me).

So a few more questions and a potential list...

If I broke the Krox list into two smaller units of 10 with 1 Krox, do you think they could be a good unit for side charging a unit that has been shot up, or does the same logic apply?

You mentioned Saurus aren't mandatory in this type of list - do you still recommend them?

Would 3 Cowboy Scarr Vets be advantageous to 2? Obviously 3 > 2, but do they taper off in higher number? 3 would allow me to deploy a Scar Vet on all fronts, but I suppose they may be most effective on the flanks.

If I run this skink list, is a BSB necessary? I feel like there won't be any combats that really make it worth the points.

And here's the list!

Lord:
Slann - Focused Rumination, Higher State of Consciousness, P of Tepok, Cupped Hands, Lore of Metal

Heroes
3 x Scar Vets - Cold Ones, LA, Shield, GW, 1 w/ Pirana Blade, Bane Head, 1 w/ Glyph Necklace
Skink Priest - Lvl 1, Dispel Scroll

Core:
50 x Skink Skirmishers - Blowpipe, HW (broken into 5 units)
32 x Skink Cohorts - Javelin, Shield, HW, Musio (broken into 3 units)

Special:
20 x Chameleons - Blowpipe, HW (broken into 4 units)

Rare:
4 x Salamanders - Extra Handlers (broken into 2 units)

2000pts
 
That makes more sense, I was under the impression that the Cohorts were there to engage in combat after throwing their javelins. Question though, wouldn't more skirmishers be the better route to take then, as they have a longer range, 2x shots, and can march and shoot? The only real advantage I see for the Cohort is the musio and the 2 point reduction (yeah they have a shield, but it seems kind of meh to me).

I upgrade to the shields and javelins for a few reasons:

1. 90% of the tournaments I play in comp the amount of shots an army may have to 90 shots (not including skink cohorts as they are ranked and have 12" range). This means I need to focus on the quality of the shots. Double shots with blowpipes sound cool until you realise that if you move and shoot twice you need 6's to hit and if they are over half range away you can only shoot once and need 6's to hit. The problem that arises is 2 Blowpipe shots from a single model is not nearly as good as 2 Javelin shots from 2 models in the context of the army as a whole when the comp is applied.

2. To get into half range in order to 2xshoot, you're usually going to have to give up a stand and shoot reaction if you want it. Consider engaging an eagle, by moving right up to it with Javelins I hit it on 4's with 10 shots in my turn and 5s with 10 shots if it charges, giving overall much better odds of dropping it.

3. Making parries is hilarious, and sometimes just leaving one guy alive who can make a stubborn test (since he's a skirmisher say in a wood) is worth the 10 points.

So a few more questions and a potential list...

If I broke the Krox list into two smaller units of 10 with 1 Krox, do you think they could be a good unit for side charging a unit that has been shot up, or does the same logic apply?

I don't think it's necessary, Skinks die too fast and give up too much combat res.

You mentioned Saurus aren't mandatory in this type of list - do you still recommend them?

This really depends on if you use scenarios are not. A unit of 20 Saurus is invaluable in the Watchtower scenario either to garrison the building initially (it's very hard to kill 20 Saurus in a tower) or to take it late in the game after you've destroyed most of the unit inside with FT and Salamanders. It can also be useful for giving your opponent something to aim at. Many inexperienced players will see a block of troops amongst worthless skinks and make killing it their goal. This allows you to dictate the flow of the battle and stops the opponent from doing the things he actually needs to do to win. It's 50/50 in my opinion.

Would 3 Cowboy Scarr Vets be advantageous to 2? Obviously 3 > 2, but do they taper off in higher number? 3 would allow me to deploy a Scar Vet on all fronts, but I suppose they may be most effective on the flanks.

2 is usually the optimal choice due to the available magic items and the desirability of 1-2 Skink Priests. You only have access to two flaming wards (Dragonbane Gem/Dragonhelm) and 2 means of bouncing a Cannon shot (Charmed Shield/Amulet of Itzl), check out my blog for some of the optimal builds.

If I run this skink list, is a BSB necessary? I feel like there won't be any combats that really make it worth the points.

The requirement for a BSB goes way beyond winning combats. The Slann as a BSB will help your Scar Vets stay in combat against blocks which have +4 CR on them. The major issue though is that 1/3-1/2 of your army will be fleeing for the first few turns so you need that guarantee that they will rally. The +1 LD banner also makes everyone within 12" of your Slann very difficult to hurt with Spirit Leech.

And here's the list!

Lord:
Slann - Focused Rumination, Higher State of Consciousness, P of Tepok, Cupped Hands, Lore of Metal

Looks good, with Cupped Hands I'd recommend not being greedy and only throwing Dimensional Cascades or Power Drain to your opponents. It's as much insurance against miscasting as it is an offensive weapon. I'd also make him a BSB.

Heroes
3 x Scar Vets - Cold Ones, LA, Shield, GW, 1 w/ Pirana Blade, Bane Head, 1 w/ Glyph Necklace
Skink Priest - Lvl 1, Dispel Scroll

I would drop 1 of the Scar Vets and optimise the other two

Core:
50 x Skink Skirmishers - Blowpipe, HW (broken into 5 units)
32 x Skink Cohorts - Javelin, Shield, HW, Musio (broken into 3 units)

I would seriously consider Jav + Shield on the Skirmishers. Otherwise looks good.

Special:
20 x Chameleons - Blowpipe, HW (broken into 4 units)

Remember you can only have 3 of the same special choice. If you have the models you'd be best served by 2 units of Terradons and 2 units of Camo Skinks. Use points from dropping the 3rd Scar Vet and possibly from dropping a Skirmisher unit to get this.

Rare:
4 x Salamanders - Extra Handlers (broken into 2 units)

Fine, but if you're scrounging for points the handlers should be the first 20 points to go.

2000pts
 
i know your loking for a competitive list, but this easely goats you into a predictable army. competitive players know the strengths and weaknesses of the lizerdman army. And as sutch they will anticipate certain units or choises. Ofcourse a competitive list will gibe you a big edge in playing competitivly. but one can not underestimate the element of surprise in a competitive battle. trowing you opponent of guard and having him figure out a new way of deafeating you. this is epecially true in closed army lists.

i 've won lots of competitive games in this manner.

an exaple of a list i took to a 2000 pts tournament is the following:

Lords (500pts)
Slann Mage-Priest (500pts)
Aura of Quetzl (40pts), 2x Extra Disciplines (100pts), Fencer's Blades (35pts), Focus of Mystery, Higher State of Consciousness, The Focused Rumination
Battle Standard Bearer (50pts)
War Banner (25pts)

giving this guy the lore of beasts makes for a BEAST slann :p

Heroes (500pts)
Skink Chief (83pts)
Additional Hand Weapon (4pts), Carnosaur Pendant (20pts), Light Armour (2pts), Shield (2pts)
Skink Chief (104pts)
Light Armour (2pts), Ruby Ring of Ruin (25pts), Shield (2pts), Spellshield (20pts)
Skink Chief (106pts)
Additional Hand Weapon (4pts), Dawnstone (25pts), Dragon Helm (10pts), Light Armour (2pts), Venom of the Firefly Frog (10pts)
Skink Chief (107pts)
Glittering Scales (25pts), Shield (2pts), Sword of Striking (25pts)
Skink Chief (100pts)
Armor of Silvered Steel (45pts)

Core (489pts)
Skink Skirmishers (77pts)
11x Skink Skirmisher (77pts)
Skinks (412pts)
3x Kroxigor (165pts), Musician (6pts), 45x Skink (225pts), Skink Brave (8pts), Standard Bearer (8pts)

Special (355pts)
Stegadon (235pts)
Terradon Riders (120pts)
Terradon Rider (30pts), Terradon Rider (30pts), Terradon Rider (30pts), Terradon Rider (30pts)

Rare (150pts)
Salamander Hunting Pack (150pts)
2x Salamander (150pts)

ive aso brought exclusiv skink lists with units of 10 to 15 depending on them beïng reguar or skirmishing skinks. complemented by a lone metal slann. pulling a WE fighting stile of shooting and double flee's.

a,d original list can also make for a competitive one. just be shure to get lots of practice with a singel list. meaning over 10 games without mayor changes. hope this helps you have more fun with ur games and ofcourse win some of them :p
 
I think you're 11 points short on Core mate. It's an interesting list and I might give it a whirl sometime if you don't mind. I can see how it could go well, but I can also see how it could go terribly.

I think the biggest piece of advice that both myself and the LAIR have said is that you need to use the same (or very similar list) in a lot of games, especially when you're starting out. This is how you learn the game. Later on when you're more experienced it's easier to chop and change things since you have a clearer understanding of how everything interacts.

Cheers. Jeff
 
"i 've won lots of competitive games in this manner.

an exaple of a list i took to a 2000 pts tournament is the following

Lords
(500pts)
Slann Mage-Priest (500pts)
Aura of Quetzl (40pts), 2x Extra Disciplines (100pts), Fencer's Blades (35pts), Focus of Mystery, Higher State of Consciousness, The Focused Rumination
Battle Standard Bearer (50pts)
War Banner (25pts)......"

My first list was very similar to this build, but everyone on the forum said Skink Chiefs are quite possibly the worst unit in the entire game :(. It's good to see someone else who actually wants to use them and has had some success with them. Do you put all the Chiefs in the Krox unit? That's what my plan was, but I want to see how you divvy up the 5 Chiefs - my list also had 5, although I was going to put them in a much smaller unit (24 Skinks, 3 Krox)

Thanks again for the thorough answer Jeff. I have only purchased 1 box of Skinks and painted my first one last night! He looks great; I wish there was an easy way to upload his pic. I'm building a theoretical list before purchasing models that I later regret, but it sounds like I have a solid list to start with, and I will proxy units that I want to try out. I'm also hesitant to purchase the whole army, because rumor has it that we are in store for a new codex, and I want to make sure Skink lists don't become garbage in the 8th edition codex (plus one box at a time will allow me to focus on a fantastic paint job).
 
yup, :D i putt them all in the skrox unit. I used the slann as bate of as afixing method and then used the speed of the skrox unit to outmanouver my oponent and pick my battles becouse lets face it unbuffed this unit gets damaged fast. but when you do get the buff's off... OOOOO MAN i love it. killeing those chaos warriors and ogres with skiks. :p (and krox) but i wont fix the chiefs to the unit. if need be you charge one or two out to couter getting chaffed up. becouse ur killing power is fucused on magic and that one unit.
 
Sounds like it could definitely work! I might proxy some extra skinks to try out the chiefs!

I realize now that my 2,000 pt list was a bit ambitious... It's great to get feedback so that I know which direction to go towards, but let me start from 1,000.

Lords:
Oldblood - Cold One, LA, 2x HW, Shield, Dipel Scroll, Glyph Necklace

Heroes:
Scar Vet - Cold One, LA, GW, Shield, Banner, Cube of Darkness (does your banner count towards magic items? If so, I can't afford the cube)

Core:
Skink Skirmishers x 10 - Javelin, Shields, HW
Skink Skirmishers x 10 - Javelin, Shields, HW
Skink Skirmishers x 11 - Blowpipe, HW
Skink Skirmishers x 12 - Blowpipe, HW

Special:
Chameleons x 5
Chameleons x 5

Rare:
Salamander Pack
Salamander Pack

Javelins will line in front of pipes, so that I can get all weapons off. The Oldblood is there solely because I can't get 2 Scar Vets at 1000 pts, nor a Slann. I might look into getting a Skink Priest so that I have some magic, but don't think magic will overburden a 1000 pt list - plus I have cube + scroll

1000 Pts total
 
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