8th Ed. 3 Lizards in the top 10 at SCGT

[Screamer]

Which races relies on multiple heavy combat blocks to do the damage?

Isn't most competitive armies made up of one (or possibly 2) infantry blocks or a cavalry bus, fast cav, some skirmishers or cheap units to redirect/sacrifice to the opponents heavy hitter and characters. The monsters are either flying (frost phoenix) characters (deamon-prince), or comes with a canon (hell canon).

Pretty much the same as LM, but our monsters doesn't have canons or flying...

 

[Putzfrau]

Which races relies on multiple heavy combat blocks to do the damage?

Isn't most competitive armies made up of one (or possibly 2) infantry blocks or a cavalry bus, fast cav, some skirmishers or cheap units to redirect/sacrifice to the opponents heavy hitter and characters. The monsters are either flying (frost phoenix) characters (deamon-prince), or comes with a canon (hell canon).

Pretty much the same as LM, but our monsters doesn't have canons or flying...

Maybe not blocks, but there are many combat oriented armies.

Vampires will have blocks, dwarves will have blocks, as will beast men.

Empire sort of has blocks, with halberders, knights, demogryphs. Demons have plague bearers, flys, beasts.

Dark elves can have executioner blocks, witch elves, potentially spearman, although that might be a stretch.

High elves have tons of options between silver helms Phoenix guard, and white lions.

Ogres will have a block of bulls a block of iron guts and possible a block of man eaters.

OnG have goblin blocks, savage orcs, and trolls.

Skaven has slaves, clan rats, stromvermin.

Bret will have several lances and a big block of those peasant things.

While not every army has multiple infantry blocks in the strictest sense if the word, almost every army listed has multiple units dedicated to combat.

Lizardmen will have one unit dedicated to combat at most. That's different then all the examples listed. There isn't an army in the game (other than lizardmen) that relies on a core of cheap poison BS shooting in many small blocks to do most of the heavy lifting.

Maybe I'm simply not understanding what you are saying, but IMO there is a massive difference between how a lizardmen army is constructed compared to almost every other army.

 

[Screamer]

[quote="Putzfrau]
While not every army has multiple infantry blocks in the strictest sense if the word, almost every army listed has multiple units dedicated to combat.

Lizardmen will have one unit dedicated to combat at most. That's different then all the examples listed. There isn't an army in the game (other than lizardmen) that relies on a core of cheap poison BS shooting in many small blocks to do most of the heavy lifting.

Maybe I'm simply not understanding what you are saying, but IMO there is a massive difference between how a lizardmen army is constructed compared to almost every other army.[/quote]

Crap, my reply disappeared. Heres the short answer:
No one else has got cheap, poison BS-shooting in core.

If you count units that is only used for CC, and by that means any unit that lacks shooting, of course most armies have more than one block. I don't think tarpits and dedicated anvils can be considered heavy combat-blocks either, they are only there to support and let the heavy hitters get into position.

With M6 and poison shots the skinks are the most mobile infantry in the game, I think. I'm not surprised that they are popular
Saurus on the other hand is among the best core-fighters, but they lack the punch to hurt armour, and they can't really match the elites of other armies, since T4 4+ save cost points, but doesn't really help vs S6 attacks.... If they would have great weapons as an option for 2 pts, I think you would see them all the time, because then they would be a serious threat to most characters and armoured foes wouldn't dare to engage them.

 

[Putzfrau]

Crap, my reply disappeared. Heres the short answer:
No one else has got cheap, poison BS-shooting in core.

If you count units that is only used for CC, and by that means any unit that lacks shooting, of course most armies have more than one block. I don't think tarpits and dedicated anvils can be considered heavy combat-blocks either, they are only there to support and let the heavy hitters get into position.

With M6 and poison shots the skinks are the most mobile infantry in the game, I think. I'm not surprised that they are popular
Saurus on the other hand is among the best core-fighters, but they lack the punch to hurt armour, and they can't really match the elites of other armies, since T4 4+ save cost points, but doesn't really help vs S6 attacks.... If they would have great weapons as an option for 2 pts, I think you would see them all the time, because then they would be a serious threat to most characters and armoured foes wouldn't dare to engage them.

I agree largely with everything you've said.

The real point i was trying to make was that there isn't really another army that actively avoids most combats across the board, like lizardmen do. You dont wanna consider tarpits and dedicated anvils combat-blocks, okay thats your prerogative. They still function more like a combat block than like a fleeing poison shooting skink cohort.

Basically i was merely trying to bring attention to the fact that lizardmen are not a combat army. Everyone wants lizardmen to be a combat army, they have monsters they have saurus, it seems like it would be a great idea. But they aren't a combat army.

Constructing a competitive lizardmen list is a fairly unique affair.

I think thats a very safe opinion.

 

[GCPD]

Saurus on the other hand is among the best core-fighters, but they lack the punch to hurt armour, and they can't really match the elites of other armies, since T4 4+ save cost points, but doesn't really help vs S6 attacks.... If they would have great weapons as an option for 2 pts, I think you would see them all the time, because then they would be a serious threat to most characters and armoured foes wouldn't dare to engage them.

You're spot on about the Skinks, but I disagree with this part. Warriors of Chaos, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs and Goblins, Dwarves, Daemons of Chaos, hell you can make the argument for even Vampire Counts (Ghouls), Dark Elves (Witch Elves) and Wood Elves (Dryads - skirmish or no), all well surpass Saurus Warriors. I assume that you were sticking to infantry, but that's more than half the armies right there before you even start to consider the Core knights of Bretonnia and Empire. The remainder are largely S3 (S4 at best) and T3 infantry - being able to squish that sort of opposition isn't the mark of being 'best,' sadly.

 

[Pinktaco]

Saurus on the other hand is among the best core-fighters, but they lack the punch to hurt armour, and they can't really match the elites of other armies, since T4 4+ save cost points, but doesn't really help vs S6 attacks.... If they would have great weapons as an option for 2 pts, I think you would see them all the time, because then they would be a serious threat to most characters and armoured foes wouldn't dare to engage them.

Hmm.. I actually hadn't thought of Saurus Warriors with Great Weapons.. It would be great though because atm they fill a weird spot. However, GW wielding warriors would've been something completely different. We lack initative so it wouldn't have been much of an issue anyway, but would it make out templeguards useless then? I mean the difference being 1 WS and initative (which is still laughable) and the ability to become stubborn at the minimum cost of 300pts + the risk of blowing up.

If anything maybe Saurus Warriror should've been given the option to wield Halbards while Templeguards to wield Great Weapons. That would still mean that out guards would be the strongest unit.

Alternatively maybe they should've just allowed our saurus warrior to have a magic standard. Afterall S4 + AP would be able to put quite some hurt on most knights..

 

[Screamer]

Saurus on the other hand is among the best core-fighters, but they lack the punch to hurt armour, and they can't really match the elites of other armies, since T4 4+ save cost points, but doesn't really help vs S6 attacks.... If they would have great weapons as an option for 2 pts, I think you would see them all the time, because then they would be a serious threat to most characters and armoured foes wouldn't dare to engage them.

You're spot on about the Skinks, but I disagree with this part. Warriors of Chaos, Ogre Kingdoms, Orcs and Goblins, Dwarves, Daemons of Chaos, hell you can make the argument for even Vampire Counts (Ghouls), Dark Elves (Witch Elves) and Wood Elves (Dryads - skirmish or no), all well surpass Saurus Warriors. I assume that you were sticking to infantry, but that's more than half the armies right there before you even start to consider the Core knights of Bretonnia and Empire. The remainder are largely S3 (S4 at best) and T3 infantry - being able to squish that sort of opposition isn't the mark of being 'best,' sadly.

Well, I guess I just don't agree with your assessment. Point-by-point the saurus fights equally or better then the rest. If you add a cauldron or characters to the mix, of course that alters the equation. I did the math vs chaos warriors, empire halberdiers a while ago, and I came to the conclusion that the saurus kills more points than they lose.

Vs knights it all depends on the charge. 10 charging empire knights scores 5 hits, 4W, about 3 unsaved wounds. the horses score 2,5 hits, 1W, about 0,5 unsaved wounds. Total 3,5 wounds.10 saurus strike back, scores 7,5 hits, about 1 unsaved wound.
The next turn the knights and horses score 7,5 hits, 2,5 w, 1 unsaved wound. Saurus still kills 1 knight, turn. And knights are more expensive.

Dryads are quite equal, better WS but worse saves pretty much cancel out. And they lack ranks.

My point is that at equal points, the saurus is pretty solid, but since they lack the mobility and punch, they end up in unfavorable fights.

 

[Screamer]

Crap, never write posts on a phone, everything got erased again. Gah!

Short answer: When I said among the best I meant without the support of other units, and without characters. And, of course, compared to the point cost. Saurus usually kills more points than they lose, at least when I compared vs halbardiers and warriors of chaos. To compare units in a vacuum is seldom if much use, but to consider all possible add-on like characters or spells is to difficult for me.

 

[GCPD]

I'm sorry, but that is fundamentally incorrect.

Firstly, Saurus hit empire knights on 4s. In your example thats 5 hits not 7.5, leading to one wound every other phase.

Against un upgraded, no mark Chaos Warriors, the Saurus lose because they are hitting on 4s and being hit on 3s. Start throwing any equipment or Marks on the Warriors and the balance shifts further in their favour. Against the common nurgle Halberd variety? Forget it.

The same is true for dryads. They hit first and hit on 3s, the Saurus hit last on 4s and have to deal with the 5++ (at least for now.) Lack of ranks doesn't matter if you don't lose combat.

Ogres have impact hits, great weapons and stomp. Dwarves have better ws and great weapons (plus better str on the charge). Savage Orcs, Plaugebearers, Witch Elves and Ghouls all fight equal to or better than Saurus. Again, if you cant beat half the Core and the only half you can beat is S3/4 T3 5+ that does NOT make you best - it makes you distinctly average.

 

[GCPD]

On more positive note! Adam daly has been updating his YouTube reports again! You can find the link a page or two back.

 

[Putzfrau]

On more positive note! Adam daly has been updating his YouTube reports again! You can find the link a page or two back.

Hooray!

 

[RasputinII]

On more positive note! Adam daly has been updating his YouTube reports again! You can find the link a page or two back.

Yup.

His list for the SCGT is in the beginning of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49d9rr3hsV4

 

[Putzfrau]

On more positive note! Adam daly has been updating his YouTube reports again! You can find the link a page or two back.

Yup.

His list for the SCGT is in the beginning of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49d9rr3hsV4

just finished watching them yesterday. he uses his terradons so well.

 

[RasputinII]

just finished watching them yesterday. he uses his terradons so well.

Very true

I loved the "I use black sun dice because they roll lots of sizes" followed by "I got 8 hits with my Olblood."
Also, I got a whole lotta respect for the Pirhanna blade from those games.

 

[Putzfrau]

just finished watching them yesterday. he uses his terradons so well.

Very true

I loved the "I use black sun dice because they roll lots of sizes" followed by "I got 8 hits with my Olblood."
Also, I got a whole lotta respect for the Pirhanna blade from those games.

Yeah, playing ogres a few times never hurts either haha.

 

[lizard_sNow]

anyone know if he is a member of our wonderful community?

 

[Qupakoco]

^^ Knowing his identity might change your opinion of his performance. Like Batman.

 

[Dan Heelan]

My email on the lists were very short. It was more to give an overall view. They certainly had
Skirmishers as well. I will try and see if we have the lists still, although I will post without items in case the players are secretive. Knowing the players involved I doubt it but out of respect I will anyway.

D

 

[Putzfrau]

I believe the lists to the SCGT were recently posted to the bad dice lists archive.


Www.baddice.co.uk/lists

 

[Dan Heelan]

Ah looks like Russ must of given them to Ben; good news.

D