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8th Ed. 2400 Points vs Skaven - Advice please....

G
Razordon

Gary_M

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I'm playing an experienced player on Monday - 2400 points, 50% Lords and Heroes, but that's it.

I'd appreciate any comments, good or bad, on my proposed list:

Slann (Beclaming Cogitation, Harmonic Convergence, Focus of Mystery, BSB, Skavenpelt Banner [to give TG bunker frenzy for an extra attack] and Channeling Staff)

a lvl 1 beasts priest plus scroll
a scarvet cowboy with A of D and GW (1+/4++)
a scarvet cowboy with steg helm, luckstone and potion of foolhardiness, GW (1+ with a single reroll)

core is 3 units of 10 skirkmishers
33 saurus plus full command

24 Temple Guard, full command and razor standard
3 terradons
6 cold one riders with full command

2 sallies plus snacks for each.

Total 2396

I've read the skaven tactica quickly but not entirely sure what units my oppo will take.

Are there any glaring errors in the above list?
Are there any units that should almost always be taken against Skaven that I've missed out?
Magic - Is High a decent choice against skaven? I like it, and being able to swap for other lores could be useful.

Is the Razor banner overkill against skaven? (I have no idea of skaven units Strength, Toughness and other characteristics or what armour etc they can have).

In terms of other models I have available if the above needs changing:

Carno, steg, basti, more cold ones, a second priest, more saurus, one more sallie

Thanks for any comments.
 
This list should be (mostly) fine. Drop the razor standard. Skaven tend to be low toughness, low armor. They depend on their numbers for survivability, not their saves. Take the standard of discipline instead. Cold-blooded leadership 9 is good, cold-blooded leadership 10 is better.

There are no problems with your core. I tend to favor having a lot of skinks, but it is personal preference.

I'm a little concerned about the skavenpelt banner. Remember, in addition to frenzy, it also gives hatred to both sides when fighting skaven. While TG should be more than tough enough to handle just about anything (especially with hand of glory), giving Mr. Fellblade rerolls can be really painful.


Here is a list of the things you are likely to see:

At least 1, probably 2 buses of slaves. These are tarpits and will stick around forever.

A warlord with the fellblade (Str 10, d6 multiple wounds). Do NOT let this in combat with your cold ones. This and their cannons (which I will get to in a sec) are the reason I prefer skinks over saurus for core: at this strength, saurus and skinks die at the same rate, so you may as well have each wound cost half as much. Plus, skinks can shoot.

At least 1, probably 2 cannons. These are variable strength, so sometimes they will land in the middle of your TG and wipe them all out, and sometimes they won't kill anything. They explode in a template at the end of the shot, so they are VERY dangerous to infantry, unlike normal cannons. Also, they are magic, so never take an ethereal slann against them. You may want to consider an ironcurse icon on the slann.

A level 4 wizard. These are what you expect, though they have to use one of the skaven lores.

If you see a low level wizard attempting to cast Skitterleap, dispel it immediately. He most likely has the brass orb, which is basically a purple sun grenade. It WILL wipe out your temple guard.

A doomwheel. You really don't want to be in combat with this if you can. Surround it and shoot it to death with your skinks. Its lightning shots will kill 3 skinks a turn if you do it right, but the skinks will be fine(ish). Don't let your terradons anywhere near this, as it can easily wipe out the unit with shooting. Also, its random movement, so you don't get charge reactions.

A hellpit abomination. Like the doomwheel, but with regen and no shooting. Still, painful.



As far as magic is concerned, high magic works great. Skaven always has a lot of juicy targets for fiery convocation. Hit one of the bunkers with it. Don't bother with the slaves. Too big a risk of losing the slann to a miscast to kill off maybe 100 points of slaves.


I hope that helps a little bit. Skaven can be tough, or they can kill themselves. Either way, they are pretty fun to play against.
 
Just a brief correction to the above poster's otherwise excellent analysis.

The Skavenpelt Banner gives your entire unit Hatred against Skaven, but the Skaven only get hatred back against the bearer of the banner (in this case your Slann so no-one is going to be hitting him anyway).


I think High Magic is lacking in a couple of things that you'd find useful against Skaven, namely flaming to help negate any Hellpit Abom, and high strength magic missiles to do a number on Doomwheels. Personally I'd go with Wandering Deliberations, but against all those big Skaven units even Tempest can be pretty nasty.
Your skink skirmishers may well have a hard time seeing off the Doomwheel by themselves and the Random Movement means you'll get no stand and shoot and no flee reactions, so acutally poisoning it (past it's 4+ AS) isn't easy.

Running some big infantry blocks like you are, I'd concentrate on seeing off the Hellpit before it gets into combat. I've had one grind down 30 Saurus Warriors with an Oldblood, it was most unpleasant.

Our Thunderstomping monsters can do a number on the slave buses (Stegs, Bastiladons, Trogs). Just hold them up and grind them down.

Another useful tactic can be to try and take out their command structure. Skaven really rely on their characters so some Rippers flying around threatening a KB will at least give your opponent pause for thought.


Once you get into combat with your Saurus and TG, you shouldn't have much problem spanking those rats silly. You just need to roll with the random punches that Skaven can throw out and keep grinding it out.
 
@LawGnome and @laribold - Thanks for the tips - I've copied to read at my leisure over the weekend! :oops: #needtogetoutmore

I'll drop the AP banner, and get the standard of discipline. With the Slann there as BSB this will be re-rollable (I think) so virtually guaranteed to make with cold blooded (how much do you want to bet I roll a minimum of two sixes a five consecutively on my first test?!?!?! :rolleyes: )

Doing this, and given the 4 points short gives me 34 to play with. If I upgrade to Lvl 2 beasts, is dropping the Potion of Foolihardiness better/worse than dropping one of the snacks on the sallies?

Just a thought, is the small cold one bus better than running solo cowboys? Could they act as tarpits against the tarpits (or is that a total waste of their abilities?)

Assuming he takes one, how do you deal with a hellpit? Will buffing the saurus/TG with Wyssans help much?

I am limited to the numbers of skinks I actually own, so its 3 x 10 at the moment!

Thanks again.
 
The way I dealt with a Hellpit was by letting it tire itself out killing an entire 30 strong Saurus block!

Seriously though, it has a random table it rolls on in combat and none of them are good for our Saurus-based warriors as his I4 lets him go first. He'll either do:
A S6 d3W hit to all models in base contact (not nice for any characters);
3d6 attacks and if any wounds are caused you'll be at -1 to hit; OR
I test (yay!) for all models in base contact or take an auto S6 hit PLUS 2d6 automatic hits

And then on top of that is his S6 T-stomp. It can be brutal. I just don't think a Wyssan's boost to T5 is going to help much, although the S5 will help you wound him but he'll still have a 4+ regen save.

The Steg Helm Scarvet and the Cold Ones might do a job here though, with the impact hits helping. But ideallym, shoot that sucker! You really do want to be taking him down before combat if you can. Some flaming magic missiles will work like a dream (hence why I like WDs better for this match up); or maybe a Laserdon?


I'm not sure you'll get much use out of the scroll caddy from a casting perspective so boosting him to Level 2 seems a touch pointless (and if you keep him I'd make him heavens, the sig spell is 1 dice castable with a Level 1).

Could you drop the Priest altogether? Drop the standard and champ from the Cold Ones too and with the savings from the TG banner change you've got near enough for a Bastiladon. Some flaming magic missiles, an I boost to help against any Brass Orb horribleness and a big scary T-stomping monster to grind down some slaves...

Just a thought...
 
Hey, man!

In my opinion... you are not exploiting the weaknesses of the skaven with this list.
Id suggest: bastiladon for terror and solar engine against aboms. More skinks against wheels, bells, cannons, also to redirect blocks. 2x2 sallies at least! Skaven will bring huge blocks of slaves. Use these guys wisely.
An ancient steg with sharpened horns should be considered aswell: terror, removing multiwound shits.
Dunno if you took, but go for loremaster of high magic. Spell no6 does the job for you. #snipelowldchars#spiritleech#standardofdiscipline
AND, 50% lords and heroes? FUUUUUUCK scar-vets, go for an indestuctible killing machine(oldblood). Take two of them, one with dawnstone and armor of destiny, other with stegadon helm and talisman of preservation. Both with gw, on cold one ofc.
And, final thought: forget blocks. Slow, immobile, fragile. Forget buffing them, you wont be able to cast offensively if you spend you pd-s on augments. Take units wich are able to do their job without help. But thats my opinion. Slann does well in a group with skirmishers, not even exploding them. #skinkfriendly#noblocks
 
Don't forget about railroading the random movers, although if he is experienced you may never get the chance to. Some call it cheese, but I am yet to see an experienced player who does not abuse the intricacies of movement. Besides, rats love cheese.
 
@themuffinman, what is railroading? Never heard of that before? Cheers.
 
@laribold I see where you are coming from but like the ability to cast slanns damage spells through the priest. I'll see what I can do though.
 
Railroading: you move next to the random mover, stop from 1' at its side, and it wont be able to pivot,before it moves. This allowes it only to move forward, making it useless. For example, you can make a 250 point steam tank useless with a group of skink skirmishers:)
 
@skinquisitor thanks. I see. Unlikely he'll give me the chance to do so, but I'll keep an eye out for it. Does this apply to doom wheels and hello It's? Any other models/units in Skaven army?
 
Hello is? That should have been hellpits lol. Damn autocorrect
 
"hello It's" is just wonderful. We really should start calling abominations this way!

Some advices: if you can destroy his warmachines do it, otherwise do not engage slaves with important units because he can shoot on them. Field as many sallyes as possible. Don't put your infantry in range for his 13th spell
 
And don't get too discouraged with his cheating magic that ignores 8th edition rules. I think the skaven banner is an excellent choice if you take tg. Has done wonders for me.
 
Thanks to every one for their replies. I've been told that his list does have a hello is :D a do wheel and a cannon. The hellpit usually deploys in the middle of his army so probably little chance to railroad it but we'll see.
 
Updated list has the Terradons removed, the TG down to 20, cold ones down to 5 and some musicians gone, along with razor banner. This has bought me an ancient steg with upgrades. Hopefully get charge on the damn hello is after a wound or two from shooting or sallies.
 
vs Skaven I would give the following thoughts:

* Big blocks of Saurus/Temple Guard are going to die as easily as skinks vs 13th spell - so don't take them
* Ethereal Slann is an easy target
* Big blocks of rats provide ideal targets for salamanders, take lots of those
* His game plan relies on the safety of his seer and then his BSB, so anything that can make a run at these is good - flyers are an option, maybe a geared up skink chief?
* Skink skirmishers will do well vs. Hellpits, which is a virtual guarantee for his list. Javelin is my preference since I find I usually need to move and am at long range.
* Doomwheel is also a virtual guarantee. Remember this thing does 3 shots at the strength of an artillery dice with each wound multiplying into d6 wounds - Keep your stegadons away from this. It also has a 4+ Armour Save so make taking this out a priority, perhaps with magic.
* Another reasonably probable fielding from him is a warlord on a rat ogre with the fell blade. The fell blade is S10, D6 wounds, re-roll ward saves. It's disgusting. If you see him deploy this model you want to cast arcane unforging here.
* Bastiladon will have a fun time firing his laser vs. Hellpits
* Stegadons will have a good time against rats generally but field at least two, double thunder stomp and double impact hits are awesome. Single is....meh...
* Warlock engineers and other cheap characters who can carry 50 pt items are likely to have the brass orb. It fires 8" and lands like a stone thrower, anything touched takes an I test or dies. No saves of any kind. So if you see him skitter leaping a cheap character, this is his plan.

Hope these points help. :)
 
Taking on board all the comments here and acknowledging the limitations of the figures I own, my third draft is as follows:
Slann, becalming cogitation, harmonic convergence, focus of mystery channeling staff bsb (dropped skavenpelt banner, would love to take it, but if big blocks die vs Skaven then I've a very expensive juicy target, so dropped this and TG, spoiler alert!)
Priest, lvl 1, dispel scroll. Instead of beasts, think I'll go for heavens. Cheaper to cast, good signature and a slim chance of comet (plus other good spells)
Scarvet cowboy. GW, A of D
Scarvet cowboy, GW, LA, Steg helm, luck stone

3 x 10 skink skirmishes
33 Saurus warriors, full command (I simply don't have enough skinks to make this any smaller!)

6 cold one riders, pack leader & standard bearer.
Basti
3 Terradons riders (I didn't like the fact that I'd dropped these in the previous list)

Ancient steg, unstoppable stampede, sharpened horns
3 sallies plus extra handler.
(If I remember correctly, I can only have 2 units of the same special choice so these will be a unit of two and a solitary one. Is this correct?)

One very noob question, without my TG block to hide the slann, where does he go? If he gets skirmish target, a unit of skirmishes seems best to me.

One other question, what is retro like against Skaven? I know he's good generally.

If I were to drop the slann and a Scarvet (or two) I could get retro and an old blood or two.
 
Thanks again for all the replies.

I played yesterday and will do a batrep later, but the last list above is the one I used, and against a very experienced player, got to within c120 points of him and on the 20 - 0 scale, he said it would have been a 10 - 10 draw. Even if it had been an 11 - 9 loss I'm still happy as it went right down to the wire and afterwards he admitted that I'd given him some problems.

Having been almost tabled by him on two previous occassions I am very happy this morning!

I killed the "hello its", not by sallies and steg shooting as planned, but the traditional way of hand to hand combat and also managed to railroad his doomwheel with a 70 point unit of skink skirmishers who shoot it to death.

While we got the full 6 turns in, I actually wanted a couple more - I think with what was left of our armies, I might have won. But rules is rules so ended on Turn 6. :(
 
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