8th Ed. 2400 Point Campaign, need help bad!

[ZachAttack]

So I posted in the army list section and feel this is probably a better spot for it, since I really need some advice on what to add to my army next. So far my main opponents are gonna be dwarves, wood elves, ogres and WoC. My biggest concern is the WoC since he has a pretty strong list. We are all pretty new to the game so im not dealing with any pro players here but I still wanna be prepared. We are gonna be doing a month or 2 long campaign where we all play different games against eachother using 1 list that we select at the beginning. So far ive been getting a good amount of practice games in and have come to the conclusion that I really dont like cold one riders. I feel like I honestly never get my points for them. As of right now these are the models I have

30 saurus warriors (Spears)
20 temple guard
1 slann
1 scar vet on foot
2 skink priests
1 salamander
3 krox
6 chamo skinks
24 skinks
5 cold one riders
1 stegadon

Im gonna be purchasing pretty much the rest of my army soon. I love the models for the rippers and terradons but dont feel I have the skill to keep them alive. The dwarf player who happens to be my brother runs 3 cannons and a gun line with his dwarves, other than that I dont have too much artillery to deal with besides 1 iron blaster from the ogres. I love the steg, I feel it always takes care of business in every game ive played. I love the saurus block and slann. I think my biggest problem is my hero/lord choices. I see on here a lot that scar vets or oldbloods on cold ones are the way to go. I was thinking about picking up 3-4 of these, im just not really sure how to use them. Do you put them in a big block of cold ones and just assist in combat, never really charging them in the front? The warriors of chaos player is my biggest concern since he runs. 6 skullcrushers, 6 dragon ogres, a flying dp with death, 24 warriors tzeentch with halbers, some hounds and a chaos lord tooled out to be pretty tough to kill. I never really know what to target. Other than the 3-4 scar vets on cold ones, I was thinking about maybe getting another steg or possibly a bastiladon. I love the model, just not sure how well they do in the game. Im for sure gonna be getting another box of skinks to possibly run 3-4 units of 10-12. I always use bp because I feel regardless of how much my bs is lowered the double shots for poison is what im always aiming for. Is there any advice you guys have on what I should get next besides some skinks and scar vets on cold ones? Bastiladon or steg? I know people tend to like bigger than 20 on temple guard blocks, i just have such a hard time spending 40-50 bones just for 5 models because I wouldnt even be using the whole 10. Is any of our special characters worth taking a peek at? Should I look into getting another salamander? Any advice on further building my army would be great. Right now im at that point where I pretty much have to add points everywhere I can to get to 2400 points. Id love to really shave my points down to a pretty a competitive list so any advice from some of you vets would be great. I appreciate your time, thanks for any responses in advance!

 

[Kinks]

Hey there,

I haven't played Lizardmen for that long, but I do play Dwarfs and play against a similar WoC list on a regular basis. Perhaps I can provide some help.

The WoC is a tough list. You are right to be concerned about it. Overall, it will probably offer you the greatest challenge, mostly because there is nothing Lizardmen can field that is a hard counter to it. That doesn't mean it can't be beaten though.

Poison, mobility and redirection are your greatest weapons. He will be fielding small units in very small numbers. Use that to your advantage. I would go for full skink core. Ideally, I would field all skirmishers so that you can really dominate the movement phase. But you won't have the models for that, so field the maximum number of skirmishers you can with a cohort with enough bodies to deliver those Krox into that warrior block. Forget blowpipes. They are simply inferior to javelins and shields. You are going to need to move EVERY turn to stay out of those charge arcs (his list is fast as well) and with the additional multiple shots modifier you will lose the poison on the pipes. Additionally, never underestimate the parry save you get with the shields. You will using the skirmishers to redirect that lovely DP into the charge of your Stegadon or into void space. But you could get lucky and shave a few CR off of the combat and hold him for a turn longer.

Constantly move and harrass the Dragons and the DP with the skirmishers. Every wound counts.

Take a Slann with HM, stick him in the temple guard and in the first turn, cast Drain Magic and swap it for the Metal signature spell and watch those Skullcrushers and Warriors evaporate (you made need to 6 dice it to make sure). If you get into trouble, always leave a few dice for Walk Between Worlds to jump a unit out of a charge arc. Its invaluable, but be careful, its a one trick pony. Once you have done it once, your opponent won't make the same mistake again (a good opponent won't).

Oh. And take a Stegadon with sharpened horns. If you can redirect the DP (as mentioned earlier) or the Dragons and get a charge in, they will die horribly to the impact hits.

Leave the Cold Ones, Saurus Warriors and Salamander at home. Against units with high toughness and high armour save, they are useless. Not to mention, the Chaos equivalent is simply better.

As for the Dwarfs. MSU really hurts our shooting. Again, lots of skirmishers to poison those warmachines (dominating the movement phase really shouldn't be a problem here). If you have any chiefs on flyers. Tool them up and get them warmachine hunting. Flyers are the bane of my existence as we have no real counter to them. Salamander is good here for those hammerer and longbeard units. If you take a Slann, TG are a must for those auto-pass Look out Sirs!, especially with all those cannonballs flying around.

Don't listen to the drivel online. Dwarf anti-magic is very limited now. It is obviously stronger than most, but with the Slanns ability to generate extra power dice it is not hard to overwhelm them.

Ultimately, with Dwarfs, don't stick all your eggs in a single basket. That unit will get obliterated.

In both cases, tool up a couple of 150ish point cowboys and stick them into small easy win combats or flank charge them into faltering battle lines.

Hope that helps a bit!

 

[Man0waR]

Hi mate.

I should try to fit the next


Slann 375 points or below. Wandering Deliverations would give you all the balance you need.

Oldblood on foot below 200 points (For boosting your TG). I usually field him with +1 to hit so your Oldblood should hit on 2+. And with magic you could augment his strength and also have armour piercing with Razor Standard. This guy average 3 wounds and is tough as nails.

Scarvet (BSB or not) on cold one w/ Crown of command & charmed shield (anticanon) in Saurus warriors

Priest A) Dispel Scroll w/ Heavens

Priest B) Cloak of Feathers w/ Heavens or Beast

Saurus Warriors X -2 (whatever X is the number you want to run -2 cuz scarvet footprint, then you save points)

2 or 3 x Skinks skrimishers with javelins

Maybe buy more skinks and do a big cheap cohort or mix with kroxigors (i run 30 in 5x6 formation with great results)

20x Temple guard w/ Discipline or Razor Standard

Bastiladon w/ solar engine

1 or 2 Salamander

Chameleon Skinks

If you got enough points, go Ancient Stegadon.


This kind of list Works wonders for me. Nearly unbreakable center w/ lot of support in magic. You can deploy the flying priest in the big cohort and once is needed fly to a key point. So even with your slann fighting, you can keep blasting enemies through vassal.

You have enough combat prowess with 1+AS Scarvet & Oldblood. Also with Earthblood you could heal them unsaved wounds. You only have to judge where your Saurus are going to survive enough or die horribly.

 

[Madrck]

First off if your playing a tough as nails WoC list, just accept your almost always going to lose and be over the moon when you manage a draw.
What points will you be playing at? helps with builds and lists, at 2400 you will only have the slann, at 2500 you get the slann and an OB. changes your core choices a fair amount too.

Aside from that there is a bunch of choices to make. Though for your big power spike take the channel combo on your Slann(harmonic convergence+channel staff). It gives you magic dominance pure and simple. Not like the old book but still a lot better then what most armies can even dream of. I'm not a fan of WD and love Focus of mystery. Shadow and light are also super strong in the army, and then there's a few niche magic schools based on builds. Life is super strong but stronger in monster mash lists or if you know your vs big blocks. Death is death, take banner of discipline if you go down the dark dirty and boring path that is death.

Rippas are fun and can scare the s*** out of your opponents but they will prob do nothing against WE(they will die to ASF before ever attacking unless you get a flank charge and even then it's not as good as it could be) Their damage output can be just incredible but most of the time they eat to much dirt. still a little magic can turn them into game winners, just don't bank on it.

Scarvets on CO though you can take to the bank and withdraw on that for the rest of your WHFB career. They are strong, durable, killy and best of all cheap. There's a tactica around here somewhere for builds but truth be told it's hard to go wrong with them... ever. Soooo strong

Blowpipe for javs is no contest. Javs are just better in every situation that doesn't involve magic assistance (I like to run a unit of 18 bp with high magic backup for the extra pip of BS that they need)
BP hit on 4's, move 5's long range(they will be) 6's, double tap 7's(and you can't get poison when you need 7's) So logic just says don't double tap when your at 7's to get poison. that's fine except for when your getting charged and can't stand and shoot (happens way too often) where as javs can always (Quick to fire) stand and shoot.

Cold one cav are just bad, not horrid, but for there cost I feel they don't do enough. Which is sad but that's that.

skrox units are just weak compared to what they used to be. I'd use your krox as just a unit of 3, take a champion and learn all the dirty shenanigans you can do with it. Worst case it's str7 which can fight mournfang if you get a flank, or they can just charge down a flank(they move 6) and threaten battle lines.

The dirtiest list I can come with at 2400 with this is mind is
Slann BSB channel combo, focus of mystery. or life with resiv of eldritch
Scarvet CO GW Armour of Destiny (My opponents have nicknamed this guy Captain Awesome, the things he's done
Scarvet CO GW LA dragon helm, Dawnstone (rerollable +1 and immune to searing doom ect..)
scarvet ogre blade LA potion of speed, enchanted shield (goes in TG or saurus for challenges or str7 for that heavy cav that will inevitably charge your blocks)
lvl2 Beast priest (amber spear is a cannon or you can end up with a random mountain chimera, good times)
33 Saurus FC
Skink skirmishers x10
Skink skirmishers x10
Skink skirmishers x10 BP
18xTG FC movement banner
3 krox w/ancient
6 camos
ancient steg, sharened horns
Sally

You can easily drop the krox and camos to get 2 units of terra/rippa action happening. Which you will probably find more useful and fun in general. Hope this helps mate and if you have any specific questions ask away

P.S. forgot special characters, tetto isn't quiet as strong as a tooled up slann, but he gives d3 vanguard which might just be the strongest thing in our book, and he has reliable comets and he comes out of hero so you can take 2-3 OB which is all kinds of strong and stupid. Even comes with solid combat buffs after you make combat.
The rest while some are not unplayable point for point it's almost always better just to make your own. Gor-rok gives stubborn but you probably won't need it. Mazmundi and kroak need lists built around them to get the most out of them. and the others are bad for their cost, though kroq-gar is the only way to give a ward to a carno.

 

[Ixt]

I'll split up my terrible advice across several posts, if you (and the mods) don't mind. Might make it easier to digest. Let's start from the top-down, then?

With a bit of love, Oldbloods and Scar-Vets are just devastating. They aren't so hard to outfit,either. For fielding purposes, you can use your Cold One Riders as proxies (just make sure that you pick riders who are noticeably different). Don't forget that they can join any block in a pinch (such as Saurus or TG). Also remember that - like everything else in this army – they've got specific roles.

An Oldblood on a Cold One immediately benefits from a 2+ armor save and purchasing Light Armor fits you squarely into a 1+ save, making it into your most flexible cowboy (not a single point spent on any magic items). Because of that, he's a prime choice for the Piranha Blade, the Talisman of Preservation/Endurance, the Dawnstone, the Dragonbane Gem/Dragonhelm, Charmed Shield, etc:

Saurus Oldblood
- Cold One
- Light Armor
- Piranha Blade
- Talisman of Preservation
- Potion of Speed

1+/4++ with a quick burst of speed when necessary – if you've got Beasts magic and get lucky enough to roll up Horros, he's sure to knock out a monster/lots of monstrous rank-and-file.

Saurus Oldblood
- Cold One
- Light Armor
- Dawnstone
- Armor of Destiny
- Other Trickster's Shard
- Sword of Striking

Saurus Oldblood
- Cold One
- Great Weapon
- Crown of Command
- Armor of Destiny
- Dragonbane Gem

Those are some basic builds, but they'll all function a bit differently – one will tarpit more effectively than the others via Crown of Command's Stubborn, the other is going to utilize OTS to knock out high-cost characters, etc.

Despite the last entry, I usually save the magic armor for my Scar-Veteran cowboys, then equip them great weapons or halberds:

Scar-Veteran
- Cold One
- Great Weapon
- Armor of Destiny

Huzzah! 72.5~ss of carnage! This guy makes for a formidable & highly mobile BSB for either a group of cowboys, your shock troops, or even your army as a whole.

As far as Slann, there's nary a wrong way to build one. In your situation, however, I recommend High Magic & a list to complement. Because of the campaign environment, I think that you'll get better mileage out of Focus of Mystery rather than Wandering Deliberations, since it'll enable you to change up your specialization on the fly. For example, you could have three battles against WoC, and each one could demand a different lore – in one you might need Life, in another Shadow, etc. With WD, the spells are pretty good but you're a bit stuck. The drawback is that you'll have to think one turn ahead.

The order in which I drop my spells against WoC (when fielding HM) has usually gone: Fiery Convocation (cast it on a big block of Warriors, then drop), Tempest (lay it on a unit likely to charge, then drop), and Arcane Unforging (nice for BSBs/DPs, and not bad to keep around for multiple casts). The others, in my opinion, offer too much utility to drop right away (Drain Magic especially).

The spells that you pick up as replacements will change and largely depend on your situation – just trust your gut. Whichever lore you substitute, make sure that defaulting to its Signature Spell doesn't put you at an immediate loss.

 

[ZachAttack]

Thanks for the awesome replys. there is some really sound advice in here. I had no idea about the blowpipes, i've been using them wrong this whole time. I just figured if I needed more than a 6 to get regular hits all i'm really banking for is poisons anyway. I can see why javs are much better. Ill add more skinks to account for the numbers. I was actually wondering what lore would be best to use. I forgot to ask, but so far i've kind of play tested with life, HM and metal. Metal does really well against the WoC player, and the dwarves but not so well against Wood elves or Ogres. Life has been very solid for me so far, even won me a game by keeping my block of TG and Slann alive when I was down to 1-2 models left. My problem is i'd really love to build a list to strictly counter or even just be max effective against the WoC since i'm most worried about him, but I kind of need an all around solid list for the ogres, woodies and dwarves. Kinks I love your perspective on the dwarves and your experience with chaos, i'm definitely gonna be taking your advice into account. I did forget to mention the campaign is going to be 2400 points so, running a Slann and old blood will be a little bit tougher to do. Sorry i'm a pretty new player as far as rules go so I wasn't aware you could run a cavalry model in a block of infantry. I'm guessing he just uses the saurus or TG movement instead of the CO? One of my bigger questions is, are bastiladon a solid choice at all? I really love the model, and I feel like the +1 initiative could help against purple sun since the WoC player really loves his nurgle flying DP, flying around casting that where he can. Though i've never play tested it since I don't have the model. Whats your guyses thoughts on bastiladons? I know that salamanders really aren't the best against heavily armored stuff like dwarves or WoC but I feel I should take 1 and maybe 2 for the ogres and woodies, whats your guyses thoughts on that? I love the models for the rippers but i'm not sure i'm a good enough general to keep these flying frenzied units alive to get the most use out of them. Madrck that looks like a pretty solid list, I really love the builds you did for the scar vets, i'm definitely gonna role with that. I do have a question though on the challenge scar vet you suggested, when you put a enchanted shield on him doesn't it only benefit the save when its combined with a mundane weapon? Does that mean the ogre blade cant be combined with it to up the save? Also is it worth it at all to have a dispel scroll incase a purple sun gets off and I don't have enough dice to dispel it? I really like that last list, it looks pretty solid all around and besides the hero choices is similar to a list I run pretty often. Would it be a good idea to drop the krox for a bastiladon or do you think my army needs that 7 str to counter those higher toughness and armored armies. Thanks again everyone for the reply, so far I've already learned a ton about the army i've been using. Thanks again for any other replys, i'm really trying to win this thing even with the WoC army floating around haha.

 

[Ixt]

Bastiladons are incredible, yes. Totally 100% worth the points. The initiative boost is great, and the bound spell pulls its weight too.

Be weary, however, with your target priority - its bound spell has the Flaming Attacks rule. High-armor characters are likely to carry the Dragonhelm/Dragonbane Gem.

Even so, the blast (with a 32" effective range) has a 50% chance of generating AT LEAST 2d6 S5 (and possibly S6+debuff) hits on a successful cast. Not bad at all.

It does well against lone models, especially artillery crew/monsters with poor saves. The blast devastates chaff. In the endgame, the Bastiladon makes for a stellar roadblock - it is the only model in WHFB with a 2+ Scaly Skin save.

I start my magic phases by throwing one die into it when I don't need it to go off (66% success), or two when I do. A successful cast will get you some manner of positive results, either by causing damage or drawing dispel die.

 

[Madrck]

Basti's are awesome, not broken(why arn't they str5 with 6 attacks). They are prob GW most balanced new release unit. The bound spell is awesome, throw 1 dice at it for a chance at some real destruction, or 2 dice to be sure. 6 dice if your slann sucked himself into the warp. It can also really only fight infantry and chaff. It will normally hold a few rounds against something stronger but it's never winning that fight. Also has terror if you want to try and randomly scare things off the table.
Page 88 of the BRB should clear up shield saves. But the short answer is it works like a boss.
As to scrolls they are a powerful crutch. And thanx to the channel combo 8/10 magic phases you will have as many dice as your opponent. If you have the points spare and can't think of something else add it, because lets face it 1 purple sun can wipe out our army.
Seeing how much death you will be facing take the banner of disc on your slann for LD10. Helps against spirit leech, and LD10 while not always important never hurts either.
Replacing the krox points is up to you mate, as a unit of 3 they are very vulnerable, they are not even point and click as a unit of 6. But 10str7 attacks can get peoples attention. Still I've always ran the basti over them (after all you have scarvets for str7). My new list is the first time I won't have fielded a Basti or Tetto'ekko in a tourney. Needless to say it's not a poor choice just a different one.
I don't think Ixt highlighted it enough, but unforge that flying disc f***er as much as you can. When he sees he can lose half his ward save, he will be way more careful with it in future games.
If you want a hard counter list to WoC you would have to post his army and I'm sure we would all do our best to take those dirty choas down.

 

[Ixt]

Sorry! Missed that this Chaos Lord is an unkillable disc-guy! Yes, certainly unforge the crap out of him then. I mean, don't go out of your way and lose your casters... but take every opportunity for sure. Two of his 'X' magic items have something to do with that pesky pseudo-2+ ward save - the Third Eye of Tzeentch (reroll 1s on Ward), and the Talisman of Preservation (4+ ward).

Whether you wound the target, Arcane Unforging has a legitimate shot at taking out one of the two, but even better is the fact that it's a 'Direct Damage'-type. Make sure to remind your opponent that it's direct damage, and that you can/will continue targeting the Lord even if he rides that disc into combat.

Something else I forgot: flying Skink priests. They're great! Take one. 'Arcane Vassal' is HUGE. 12" spells become 36" spells -- woah.

Anyway, onto your core choices!

I recommend a Skrox-heavy core versus WoC. I've had great success by running light-to-midsized Skrox units in an 'interceptor' role. Occupying the gaps between forward and rear specialist troops, their high Movement value allows them to easily waylay beefy Monstrous squads & flyers, by either harassing them through shooting or holding them steady in combat for a turn or two, and then sometimes even scoring kills on their targets.

I've played WoC several times at 2,000 points. Going somewhat over minimum core, I often field:

Two 21-man Skink Cohorts with...
2 Krox
Poisoned Attacks
Full Command (remember, he HAS to challenge if he can... when your champ takes one for the team, you maintain Steadfast that much longer... also, you never know when you'll need standards for Blood & Glory)

One squad of 12 Skink Skirmishers w/ Blowpipes (primarily for redirecting, until they get ignored - then they're primarily for killing!)

To go further, these are then complimented by a stripped-down flying Egg Chief (also for redirecting, destroying fleeing units, and then eventually a suicide charge).

Skrox is a unit that won't need a whole lot of magic support in this matchup (at least, it hasn't for me), though in other matches - Wood Elves, especially - it will likely need support from Life Magic (Flesh to Stone is great, and even better if you can get Throne of Vines).

I've found that two things have been consistent in my matches against Chaos: they'll either target the two Krox for fear of their high-strength attacks, and eventually kill them... but leave all of my poisoned skinks to wreak havoc,

or, they'll kill all the skinks, and leave two units of two angry Krox cleaning up the board (probably with Cowboys) in the late-game.

Unfortunately, Saurus will probably fare significantly better in those other match-ups that you've got... they're just pretty terrible against WoC. The Campaign climate makes the choice a bit difficult, so you've got a tough decision to make. If you do field Saurus, it may be best to keep them far back until you can WBW them directly where they need to be in the late game against WoC.

This has been, over many games, my toughest match-up even against poor generals. There is just not much that we can do in a straight fight against them... but, just like in the fluff, if you stick through to the last turn, you may win. WoC just seems to lose steam after a while, especially if you knock out the characters. If you lose, no worries. If you force a draw, kudos. If you win, hell of a job. Kroq-Gar would be proud.

 

[ZachAttack]

That is great to hear about the basti, because that model is so unreal and I would love to have one in my army. For 150 points I guess you cant really go wrong. Thanks for the advice on picking my target, I would of probably felt really brave with him the first game, but now I know to keep it to a role of infantry and chaff. Ixt I just noticed your first post and I liked your comments on High magic and what spells to drop first, thats always been a question in my mind in the games I have used HM. I thought walk between worlds was the one to drop first, I didn't realize its value. So when I roll for spell out of another lore, I can always take the sig. Thats awesome! I have a question regarding a scar vet on CO in a block of infantry. Since the CO is stupid, does that mean the whole unit becomes stupid? I would love to field krox but I honestly love the basti choice for the points.

Madrck thanks for the advice on the ld standard. He loves to cast that spell on me, so making us even at 10 can really help me out there. I don't have the WoC exact list, but it goes a little something like this

Lords
Daemon Prince
lvl 4, Death, Nurgle, chaos armor, soul feeder, scaled skin, flaming breath, chaos familiar, dragonbane gem, charmed shield, fly, the other trickster shard or sword of strike cant remember which one he did.

Heroes
Exalted hero (goes with warrior unit)
tzeench, halberd, BSB, banner of swiftness, talisman of pres, third eye of tzeentch, burning body, enchanted shield

Core
x24 Warriors
FC, tzeench, Shield, Halberds

x5 hounds

x5 hounds

1 Chariot
Nurgle

Special
x3 Dragon ogres
champ, additional hand weps

x3 Dragon ogres
champ, additional hand weps

Rare
x3 Skull Crushers
Champ, Mus, ensorcelled weapons

x3 Skull Crushers
Champ, Mus, ensorcelled weapons

Overall its a pretty scary list even though he doesnt have many models on the table. My biggest problem is do I waste skink shots at them since they are +2 save? How the hell do I kill them besides getting lucky on spell generation and getting ghennas hounds? They are so scary!

With all the advicee given, Ive gone with this list, let me know what you guys think and what changes could benefit it. So far i'm sitting at roughly 90 points too much, and have no idea what to drop. I really like the direction of it, it looks pretty solid overall. I really dont wanna give up my saurus since I love the models, and a nice block of something. So far in the games i've played they've been a great value. Anyways here it is

LORDS 4xx
Slann Mage-Priest
BSB, Lore of HM, Harmonic Convergence, Focus Mastery, Channel staff, Standard of Discipline

HEROES 560
Skink Priest
Lvl 2, Beasts, DS

Scar Vet
CO, GW, AD

Scar Vet
CO, GW, LA, Dragon Helm, Dawn Stone

Scar Vet
Ogre Blade, LA, Potion of Speed, Enchanted Shield (Should he go with Saurus or TG?)

CORE 629
x29 Saurus Warriors
FC, Spears

x10 Skink Skirmishers
Javs

x10 Skink Skirmishers
javs

x10 Skink Skirmishers
javs

x10 Skink Skirmishers
javs

SPECIAL 553
Bastiladon
Solar Engine

x20 Temple Guard
FC, Banner of Swiftness

x6 Chamo Skinks

RARE 334
Ancient Stegadon
Sharpened Horns

x1 Salamander
xtra food

Let me know what you guys think and what I can take out without losing something really valuable. Thanks again for any advice, you've guys been very helpful so far!

 

[Ixt]

You could safely drop the Chameleons, I think - they have some shock value, but 6 Chameleons will only roll two 6's per shooting phase on average, which WoC won't have much problem saving.

Also, you might even be able to drop a squad of Skirmishers to beef up your TG or Saurus. Redirectors are great, but against such a mobile & close combat-oriented army, you'll probably run out of room to deny charges in the late game.

 

[ZachAttack]

The only reason I have the chamos is for all the cannons the dwarf player has. Im mostly worried about the WoC army, but not sure how Ill handle my brothers 3-4 cannon list. I think its probably what I have to do though, I would buff up either but I actually dont have the models for it. Im in that realm where I would have to buy a full box for just 1-5 guys which I know I really need. Hopefully I can find someone selling 5 temple guard on ebay or something. That would be amazing. So 3 x10 units of skinks should be good? I have a quick question on the rules, if you take a enchanted shield, does it only give you the +2 save against shooting and only adds in in combat if its used with a mundane weapon? Also if he uses a hero with tzeenctch, with a talisman of pres and burning body does that mean he has a +2 save against flaming because it stacks with his ward save? My problem is, if I remove a skink squad that puts me like 30 or so points shy of my core requirement. I could drop my level 2 to a 1, if I did that should I go heavens or beasts? I guess I really need to get rid of the chamos since they are really the only thing I can drop point wise to get down to 2400. If I just drop the chamos, that puts me at 2,418 so i'd need to get rid of 18 points. Where can I cut the fat from to get me there?

what about something like this

LORDS 4xx
Slann Mage-Priest
BSB, Lore of HM, Harmonic Convergence, Focus Mastery, Channel staff, Standard of Discipline

HEROES 560
Skink Priest
Lvl 2, Beasts, DS

Scar Vet
CO, GW, AD

Scar Vet
CO, GW, LA, Dragon Helm, Dawn Stone

Scar Vet
Ogre Blade, LA, Potion of Speed, Enchanted Shield (Should he go with Saurus or TG?)

CORE 609
x29 Saurus Warriors
FC, Spears

x10 Skink Skirmishers
Javs

x10 Skink Skirmishers
javs

x10 Skink Skirmishers
javs

x10 Skink cohort
javs

SPECIAL 475
Bastiladon
Solar Engine

x20 Temple Guard
FC, Banner of Swiftness


RARE 334
Ancient Stegadon
Sharpened Horns

x1 Salamander
xtra food

Total
2,398

What do you guys think of that? I'm not sure really if theres another option other than removing the chamos. I love having a very point efficiant army though. Is there even a warriors of chaos list out there thats better than the one he's fielding? Whats going to be the best unit to use to combat his skull crushers?

 

[Madrck]

WoC can certainly get worse. How sad/scary is that?!

Because ogre blade is a one handed weapon you will get full bonus's from the shield at all times. If you were wielding a two hander, ala GW you would lose the save in close combat. And he can go in either unit, since he will always be deployed after both your blocks go down make your choice based on the layout of the battle. Same goes with the slann, he doesn't have to go in the TG unit, and the biggest mistake you could make is to IF fiery convication whilst sitting in your TG. Skirmishers are the best slann bunkers we have, don't worry about those 70 points doing nothing but protecting your slann. worth it everyday of the week.
Unfortunately against the dwarfan? gun line your steg will never live past the first turn. This being said you can just throw all your scarvets in your blocks and march forward. The runelords are strong but back your saurus and magic.
Your best unit against the skull crushers is swapping out for metal. Ghennas, searing doom, boosted searing doom. Oh and there's Searing Doom!! Have I mentioned searing doom?? Amber spear isn't terrible either.

The mark thing, works in the worst way you can imagine. So yes that is a another good target to unforge should the event arise.
As to the list you have built. Looks good mate. I'd make one unit of skirms BP (it's good practice and you lose nothing for knowing that one unit requires a little more out of you) and there will be that one time you hand of glory for plus 3 BS, get 3 poison and another 5hits and 2 wounds to finish on the DP. It will be just the best feeling. Though charging him with the steg and doing 5impact hits and multiplying into 8 wounds feels pretty good too.
I pref sword and board over spears on the saurus(RAW you don't get PF from the back ranks) but even if i did get the PF I just really like the parry save. To each is' own.
If you drop your skink to lvl1 (say to give him cloak of feathers) it's just a matter of preference between heavens and beasts. You can get comet on heavens and iceshard is only 2 dice to cast, and still and amazing spell. Wyssans is a better spell?(atleast when combat gets nasty) but the math says 3 dice is a risky cast(50%chance to fail) and 4 is were the math works out for you. A good way to think of casting values is that every dice is worth 3, so to cast a 10+ spell you need 4 dice. On a lvl4(slann) 10+ is 50% on 2dice and looking sweet on 3. The other fun thing you can do with a cloaked up skink is fly into the middle of your opponents army and intentionally throw 6 dice at a spell(so iceshard is deffinately going off) and miscast, it can end very bad for you, but then again you could get the big template and do more wounds then a skink has a right to.
Either way have fun and crush that dirty WoC

 

[Ixt]

Looks good! Beasts/Heavens comes down to preference.

If you prefer to remain Lv2 Beasts, try to avoid picking up Wyssan's because the Slann can easily cast it on 2 dice (especially when utilizing its Lore Attribute). You won't need it til turn 2/later, regardless. Just my opinion, anyway.

If you roll Flock of Doom for your Skink, keep it for the Hounds - you'll likely kill quite a few of the pests per casting, and a Lv 2 Priest can one-die it (cast whatever other spell you roll up first, just to be safe) against them, as the 5+ requirement becomes 4+ due to the Attribute. Frees up the Skinks to shoot at high-dollar stuff.

 

[SilverFaith]

Other Tricksters Shard help against ward saves. I haven't been unfortunate enough to have encountered WoC, but it should still help. Although..

the Third Eye of Tzeentch (reroll 1s on Ward)

How does this work when coupled with OTS? They usually say they cancel each other out, but it seems odd that OTS, which forces the reroll of ALL successful ward saves, be cancelled out by a mere "reroll 1s". So how would you play this out? Reroll all successful AND 1s, but not the rest?

Though yeah, it helps to just unforge a nasty guy like that. I'd probably nuke him with as much as possible before throwing an unforge on him, to waste their dice. Basti's bound spell targetted on him is very likely to make him spend at least 1 dice more than you did. No one wants their Lords nuked by such a spell, no matter how unkillable they might believe he is.

 

[Ixt]

Saw this on Warseer,

'The bearded one:

Herohammer laid out the example nicel. imagine a 4+ ward with eye of tzeentch and other trickster's shard:

Roll all the dice.
Take out all succesful rolls because of the tricksters shard
Take out all rolls of 1 because of third eye of tzeentch
Leaves the 2's and 3's, these have been failed and are final.
Reroll the 1's, 4's, 5's and 6's, which either failed or succeeded and have to be reroll due to the items.
The result produced by the reroll dice (and the ones that did not need to be rerolled) are final.


All the rerolls in the saving step are made at the same time, not applied one after the other. '

 

[ZachAttack]

Wow guys thanks so much for the advice and the help building this list. It looks pretty solid to me all around. I will change one of the skirmisher units to have BP, thank you for the suggestion. I think i'm going to run beasts with him and keep him a level 2 and hopefully get some nice buffs. I do have a few rule questions I still need answered if anyone can help me out. First it was mentioned that impact hits can cause d3 wounds from the sharpened horns. How does that work, say I charge a block of 3 skull crushers, and get 5 impact hits that wound. does that mean it would kill 1 crusher outright, leaving 1 wound left on another and the d3 wounds from the 5 hits go towards the other 2 crushers? Do I roll a d3 for each impact hit inflicted or do I roll 1 d3 and multiply all 5 wounds by that 1 d3? Also, on his exalted hero he uses a halberd and a enchanted shield. Does that mean he wouldn't get that +2 save in combat since he's using it with a 2h wep? I didnt see an answer to the question of putting a Scarvet on a CO and putting it in a unit, does that make the unit stupid? Also if he uses a hero with tzeenctch, with a talisman of pres and burning body does that mean he has a +2 save against flaming because it stacks with his ward save? Thanks for all your guyses help. Sorry for all the questions, i'm really trying to get all the rules down. I've read the mini rulebook 2-3 times but still some things just really confuse the hell out of me.

 

[Ixt]

First it was mentioned that impact hits can cause d3 wounds from the sharpened horns. How does that work, say I charge a block of 3 skull crushers, and get 5 impact hits that wound. does that mean it would kill 1 crusher outright, leaving 1 wound left on another and the d3 wounds from the 5 hits go towards the other 2 crushers? Do I roll a d3 for each impact hit inflicted or do I roll 1 d3 and multiply all 5 wounds by that 1 d3?

You'll make your To-Wound rolls (let's say that 4 wounds make it through).
He'll make his 4 saves. Let's say that he fails 3.
Because he failed 3 saves, you now roll 3 dice – these are your multiple wounds. If he had failed 4 saves, you'd roll 4.
So, you roll a 6, a 6, a 3. Each will apply to one Skullcrusher. Let's say that the first Skullcrusher has been previously reduced to 1 wound.
D3 turns the first 6 into 3 wounds – that Skullcrusher, with just 1 out of 3 wounds left, is a dead Skullcrusher. The excess wounds are lost.
The next 6 outright kills a Skullcrusher.
The 3 becomes a '2' for D3, and causes 2 wounds.

Does that help? Basically, you don't carry excess wounds over from model-to-model. I don't think excess wounds apply to combat res, but I could be wrong.

http://www.tnwargamers.com/forums/index.php?/topic/934-multiple-wound-models-s-hit-by-multi-wound-weapons/

Scroll down 'til you read the post by 'Tepogue,' which is post #4.

Also, on his exalted hero he uses a halberd and a enchanted shield. Does that mean he wouldn't get that +2 save in combat since he's using it with a 2h wep?

If he's using a 2h weapon, he doesn't get an armor boost from the shield in close combat. All other purposes, he gets the armor bonus.

I didnt see an answer to the question of putting a Scarvet on a CO and putting it in a unit, does that make the unit stupid?

They'll have to test for Stupidity at the highest Ld value within the unit, yeah.

Also if he uses a hero with tzeenctch, with a talisman of pres and burning body does that mean he has a +2 save against flaming because it stacks with his ward save?

Not familiar with the item, but if they both grant 'ward saves,' then he simply picks his highest save. Magic Resistance stacks with Ward Saves (against spell damage only). Otherwise, Ward Saves don't stack.

 

[Madrck]

edit; ixt and I must have posted at the same time. I was unaware about the lost wounds, do you know where in the BRB that this is stated ixt?

D3 wounds; every unsaved wound multiplies into d3 wounds. Say you did 5 impact hits, 4 wound (he got one of his 5+ armour saves) roll the 4 dice that wounded. you get 1,3,4,6. That's 8 wounds applied to the unit. He would lose 2 outright and the 3rd would have 2 wounds on it.

Halbred and shield don't mix, just ask our TG. He gets the save from the shield until he's in close combat. At which point his armour save will lose the +2.

Stupidity; Short answer is yes
If a stupid anything joins a non-stupid unit the whole unit suffers from stupidity. Just roll once at the start of the round for the entire unit.

And we are happy to help mate. If it makes you feel better I have mates that have been playing for years and we still have healthy? discussions about the rules all the time. My DE opponent and I spend more time debating the game then playing it.

 

[Madrck]

Interesting article, but I'm pretty sure he gets full wounds with impact hits as they are "distributed as shooting"
thoughts?