7th Ed. 2250 MSU-style Tournament List

[erians]

I recently started to attend tournaments after playing "garage games" for a couple of years. The lists that usually wins or place them selves well in the swedish tournament scene is lists that doesnt give up a lot of VPs, can still go for the win and come up 20-0, and doesnt have a unbeatable arch-nemesis list or army. So this is what I cam up with:

1 Slann Mage-Priest @ 365 Pts
Focus of Mystery; Higher State of Consciousness; Rod of the Storm; Bane Head

1 Skink Priest @ 370 Pts
Magic Level 1; Plaque of Tepok; Ancient Stegadon with Engine of the Gods

1 Saurus Scar-Veteran @ 170 Pts
Light Armour; Battle Standard; Sword of Battle; Enchanted Shield; 1 Cold One

12 Saurus Warriors @ 174 Pts
Spear; Full Command

12 Saurus Warriors @ 174 Pts
Spear; Full Command

12 Saurus Warriors @ 174 Pts
Spear; Full Command

12 Skink Skirmishers @ 84 Pts
Blowpipe

12 Skink Skirmishers @ 84 Pts
Blowpipe

12 Skink Skirmishers @ 84 Pts
Blowpipe

14 Cohort Skinks @ 70 Pts

6 Chameleon Skinks @ 72 Pts

6 Chameleon Skinks @ 72 Pts

6 Chameleon Skinks @ 72 Pts

4 Terradon Riders @ 120 Pts

1 Salamander @ 80 Pts
Extra handler

1 Salamander @ 80 Pts
Extra handler

Any comments and feedback is much appreciated. A few thinks to consider before commenting tho:

The swedish WPS comp system used in many tournaments is very strict and limiting for the high tier armys (and it should be!). The comp is usually capped at min 15 max 25, where this army scores 17 making it a fairly hard army. Because of the comp I had to make some adjustments; FC on saurus units are there because of the comp and they rarely loose their +100 VP flag anyway; Lvl 1 Skink priest doesnt have a level upgrade as it would bring me from 8/5 spell dices to 9/6 which would mean a huge comp hit as both magic and magic defence is punished pretty hard (especially dices over 8); Chameleons are used instead of some extra skinks as the 4th skink skirmisher takes a comp hit, unlike chameleons. They are also pretty excellent marsh blockers and shoot just as good as a unit of 12 skinks when moving and on long range.

All in all my units are either very resilient or dirt cheap. I can play the points denial game by just throwing out some skink redirectors and baiters and go for the draw / minor win, or really go for the throat with sauruses and the steg backed up by magic and shooting from skinks and salamanders. Thoughts?

 

[Sandman130]

I love the list!

I wonder what the big block of cohort is for? I love the cohort, but I've never run them above 10.

Your magic phase looks strong (at least for your comp rules), and having those saurus blocks will be great for the redirection your list is built for.

If I had to find something I didn't like, I personally would have atleast one block of 16 saurus- then put my CO riding Scarvet in that for a full 18. I like having a rock solid kick butt unit. Then you would have 2 other saurus blocks to each flank. But thats just my feeling- I'm not sure if you want to be true to the MSU idea.

Overall, I really like it.

 

[Sebulba]

Wow, that's definitely a different take on the army which you usually don't see! What is your plan for getting LOS on the enemy with the Slann without them getting LOS back? I don't have the book with me but is the higher state of consciousness the one that makes him ethreal? Because that'll help (except against skaven and all their magicy shooting...)
How does your army perform on the battle field?

I would agree with Sandman, one main unit would be a positive thing. Also, depending on which you like better, if you took 1 terradon and a unit of chameleons you could get another whole unit of terradons! Or does that hurt your comp?

 

[erians]

Thanks for quick and constructive replies !

I wonder what the big block of cohort is for? I love the cohort, but I've never run them above 10.

If I had to find something I didn't like, I personally would have atleast one block of 16 saurus- then put my CO riding Scarvet in that for a full 18. I like having a rock solid kick butt unit. Then you would have 2 other saurus blocks to each flank. But thats just my feeling- I'm not sure if you want to be true to the MSU idea.

Yeah I considered taking a 18 unit of saurus, but the problem with having a big unit with the BSB in it is it gives the opponent something to focus on as its 2 banners & ~400 pts. Big blocks of saurus does help the comp tho, so if I find some spare points ill try this. As for the skinks, they give comp bonus when they are US14+, and a couple of extra javs are always good against large targets like hydras, giants and abominations. Doesnt hurt to cover more ground either, if i want to use them as a screen, and if they become too clumsy at that size i can always run them 5-5-4.

What is your plan for getting LOS on the enemy with the Slann without them getting LOS back?

I would agree with Sandman, one main unit would be a positive thing. Also, depending on which you like better, if you took 1 terradon and a unit of chameleons you could get another whole unit of terradons! Or does that hurt your comp?

I can easily use the skinks LOS for a lot of spells if I pick fire, otherwise Ill stick him in a skink or saurus bunker (depends on what i meet). As he is etheral only magic heavy armies can do proper damage do him (well that and dwarven war machines). Skaven weapon teams are all Move or Fire and have short range, so Ill keep my slann out of range and and kill them with magic and shooting. 2nd unit of terradons does hurt the comp but might be worth it, they always perform very well.

The army have worked pretty well so far, depends on the opposition. Anything that has trouble with mass poison and salamanders are pretty easy, and its pretty reslient to shooting. Haven't had the time to play a lot with it, just some practice games with proxy models, and so far I only loose when I screw up positioning against faster armys, or when I have consistenly bad luck with magic.

 

[Bibamus]

min size for a skink unit is 10 so you take either 14 or 10
also not only weapon teams have magic attacks in teh skaven arsenal. a unit of jezails is hard to avoid even if they lost skirmish... not to mention a doomwheel can toast the slann if he is on his own.
plague censor bearers have magic attacks and are skirmishers with M5 so its not easy to outrun them, luckly they are frenzied. an abomination tough is hard to get rid off and any skaven player with an IQ bigger than a gum buys the meagic attacks/magic resistance upgrade.

 

[erians]

min size for a skink unit is 10 so you take either 14 or 10

Not sure what you are refering to....cohort or skirmishers?

also not only weapon teams have magic attacks in teh skaven arsenal. a unit of jezails is hard to avoid even if they lost skirmish... not to mention a doomwheel can toast the slann if he is on his own.
plague censor bearers have magic attacks and are skirmishers with M5 so its not easy to outrun them, luckly they are frenzied. an abomination tough is hard to get rid off and any skaven player with an IQ bigger than a gum buys the meagic attacks/magic resistance upgrade.

Jezzail can be a pain indeed, skink/saurus bunker fixes that right up tho, doomwheel shoots at closest targets and has random move so if I place my slann to be a DWs closest target then i deserve to get zzzaaapped ^_^. Plague censor bearers can easily be lured by terradons or chams, and with a 5" move you can see them coming from a mile away. The Abomb can be killed easily with mass poison, something this list has A LOT of. With the amount of harassers and redirectors in this list its extremly easy to dodge close coombat with the slann.

 

[Bibamus]

both cohort and skirmishers have a minimum unit size of 10, thats why i didn't specifiy
and the DW has random movement indeed, but it moves like a chariot. averege movement is 11" so if you slann is a bit too close to it the DW can park 1" away from it the slann. the biggest problem with is it that skaven can usually out-deploy any army bar O&G so maybe its best if against skaven with a doomwheel the slann stays in a unit of saurus.
ohh, and abominations can't be redirected, so they need to be poisoned a.s.a.p. otherwise they can kill quite anything, its ridiculously powerfull

 

[Eternity_Warden]

Out of curiosity... what does your comp system think of The Focused Rumination?

Also, 18 camo-skinks seems a bit excessive to me... but I suppose if you have a strategy in mind for them it can work...

Good luck in any case!

 

[erians]

Out of curiosity... what does your comp system think of The Focused Rumination?

Also, 18 camo-skinks seems a bit excessive to me... but I suppose if you have a strategy in mind for them it can work...

Good luck in any case!

It counts as +3 power dice when calculating your comp score (as it usually genereates +3 PDs), so playing a lone slann with it still counts as 9 PDs and 4 DDs which means a pretty big penalty. Its perfectly possible to play, but you any additional powerdices will have HUUGE penalties to them, so you can't really combine it with any priests then.

I would rather have played 4x12 skinks with 2 camo-skink units but it would hurt my comp. I like the camo skinks tho, they are easier to handle and more agile than a big unit of 12 skinks and often does about the same in the shooting phase. More fragile to magic missles, less fragile to certain shooting but gains scouting on top of it.

 

[The Hunted]

Just a simple suggestion:
You now have 36 Saurus warriors with spears, and if you hvae more than 14 it's good for your comp...
Either 2x18 with FC. Or 2x15 and upgrade the skink cohort to a skrox unit.
In this case, I prefer the latter. 12 Saurii is few...after some shooting and a combat round or 2. Well, if you have more than 6-7 left standing, you're doing a good job. And 6-7 are not strong enough to do anything but hold. with 15, you still have a pretty cheap unit; and it can take a pretty serious beating and still be moving. 5x3 is not as wide as 6x2, so it's a tad more nimble. I could go on with more arguments, but I think you have to decide and weigh the arguments, not me.
You have more than enough redirectors/annoyers. No comment on that.
I like your scar-vet, he's awesome.

The Hunted

 

[Dumbledore]

Wonderful list. I considered running something like this myself, but have gone for a similar but slightly different route without comp restrictions (ethereal slann with lore, dice, drop 6's BSB and warbanner, engine with drums and plaque, ancient blowpipes steg, small spear bunker, two sets of blowpipe skirmishers, two sets of terradons, salamander with handler, jag vet, 5 cold ones, burning blade cold one vet). The ethereal slann kicks ass and only is at risk of being killed by daemons (or skaven if you're foolish). Many armies literally can't touch him.

The only change that I would make, if comp allows it, is to swap a unit or two of chameleon skinks to terradons. Units of 3 terradons are fine IMO and I have found them to be more helpful than chameleons. Stay away from big blocks of saurus like you said for the reasons that you said.

 

[Khakorlot]

It counts as +3 power dice when calculating your comp score (as it usually genereates +3 PDs), so playing a lone slann with it still counts as 9 PDs and 4 DDs which means a pretty big penalty. Its perfectly possible to play, but you any additional powerdices will have HUUGE penalties to them, so you can't really combine it with any priests then.

This is where I think they'll have a hard time arguing their case. The Focussed Rumination Die isn't EVER generated, it's a free die that is added to spell attempts regardless of how many dice you're using to cast. Unless they've specified that any power dice, generated or otherwise, means a penalty, they shouldn't be able to hold up an argument against it.

Just tell them that it's not a generated power die, and therefore shouldn't be counted in the pool (you could go further and state that taking it and never casting a spell with the Slaan would also mean that the free die (it is stated as a 'free' power die in the entry, by the way) was never actually used, and therefore you only had the power die that are generated (and don't give penalties) but that would be a waste of a Slaan.

All in all, i'd love to hear what it says about PD, as I doubt it covers the addition of non-generated and 'free' PD.

 

[Bibamus]

i don't think you'd get very far with that kind of argument. it isn't really the friendlies thing to do and that should be the goal of a tournament.
even so, the slann WILL cast at least 3 spells/turn and he WILL use the extra dice so basically they are generated dice in effect. there is not much to contest about that rule. it seems resonable, it has been announced prior to the tournament and nobody else has a problem with it. besides all this, their best counter to any kind of argument would be "we made the rules clear for everyone, you are the only one complaining, if you don't like it, don't join the tournament. it is our event and we make the rules as we consider best in the interesst of fair play, balance and fun" or something along those lines wich no logic can defeat

 

[Khakorlot]

The only one complaining can be countered by being the only one in this situation, the dice used aren't generated, otherwise they would enter the army's dice pool and be subsequently used up, however the die is added during the spell attempt, after the amount of dice you're using has been picked, if it was generated, you wouldn't add it to the spell attempt, you'd add it to the dice pool.

It's not really a matter of friendliness either, it's a matter of arguing against an unfair handicap that could lose you games and even the tournemant, and if rectified could lose you the tournemant through penalty points.

It's one thing to argue balance and fun, but it's another trying to argue against deploying one of the army's strengths in order to promote it. You might as well argue that stripping an attack off each saurus warrior makes it fairer and more balanced because then they're more in line with the core units of other army books.

 

[Bibamus]

i can only assume that other races have restriction on their powerfull abilities aswell, otherwise it would be lizard hate and even considering to participate in such an event is morally wrong.
as for not being added to the slann's dice pool they are indeed not. in theory. you can not cast a spell with focus of rumination alone. true. but for every spell you cast you use 1 dice less becuase you get it from the focus, so practically its the same thing as added to the ppol. only exception is when you were only planning on rolling 1 dice for a spell (i.e. 4+ to cast) when more wouldn't be necessary. in that situation you get a free dice that does not only increase the succes chance of the spell but is also does not save you any dice (considering you wouldn't have used an extra anyway). in this situation the limitation makes sense.
also, with sed focus the slann can cast even 6 spells/turn. he would not be able to do so with 3 dice added to the pool (for a total of 9). this way he has 6 dice + 6 free. ofcourse some spells are borderline impossible to cast on 2D6 because you need IF, but it does show the potential power of the ability.
again, other races are probably restricted in some way aswell to balance it all out

 

[erians]

It's not really a matter of friendliness either, it's a matter of arguing against an unfair handicap that could lose you games and even the tournemant,

i can only assume that other races have restriction on their powerfull abilities aswell

Usually when someone sees restrictions on their beloved army they overlook this small detail. All armys are comped according to their power level, if you think LM have it bad you should check out deamons.

As for the Rumination not generating dices, thats not how the system works. You calculate your comp before going to the tournament, its not something that's up for debate. Rumination counts as generating +3 power dices, even tho it doesnt really generate any powerdice of its own, the wording is very clear. If someone is curious on how the system works or want to calculate their own comp score usng the swedish WPS system here is a link to it:

http://atlantis.sverok.net/WPS/RT_WPS_Comp.pdf LM are at page 14, magic at 4.

You now have 36 Saurus warriors with spears, and if you hvae more than 14 it's good for your comp...Either 2x18 with FC.

Its only 14+ for skinks cohorts that matters for comp to prevent 10xSkink Cohort unit spam, but I agree that 2x18 can be better choice as they generate the same comp. I will try both out even tho it will break up the MSU idea a bit.

The only change that I would make, if comp allows it, is to swap a unit or two of chameleon skinks to terradons. Units of 3 terradons are fine IMO and I have found them to be more helpful than chameleons. Stay away from big blocks of saurus like you said for the reasons that you said.

The second unit means a comp penalty, but terradons are good enought to make up for it. The biggest problem here is that the models are pretty expensive and Im only sitting at 4 right now.

 

[Khakorlot]

That's the first tournemant i've seen where the rules and army books have been bastardised to this extent. It's basically "Use 1 of every unit you have but no lords or anything magical or anything that's army book specific".

Just looking at the Lizardmen entry is making me cringe, -points for Slaan, -points for carnosaur (okay, that's minus points for both of our good Lords choices), -points for a second scar veteran, minus points for over 3 units of skirmishers, minus points for each bare-bones cohort unit without a kroxigor, minus points for each terradon unit after the first, minus points for every stegadon, sallies are okay as nobody takes 4 at this level, -points for less than 2 non-skirmish single models, minus points for only 2 non-skirmish single models, +points for TG without Slaan, +points for no lords, +points for every FC saurus unit, +points for US14 skinks (inc. krox), +points for krox, + points for jungle swarms, and +points for Cold-One Cavalry (good unit).

Also minus points for a warbanner, for the burning blade of chotek (!!!!!), for a steggy war-spear (that's the skink chief crossed off the list) and for war drums...

It's probably just me, but it looks like they've stripped every good item from the army book and given you penalties for taking them. What are you supposed to take now? To have a balanced list, you're going to be under heavy penalties...

 

[erians]

That's the first tournemant i've seen where the rules and army books have been bastardised to this extent. It's basically "Use 1 of every unit you have but no lords or anything magical or anything that's army book specific".

No offense but your opinions on the comp system is pretty uninteresting for me. The system have upsides and downsides but it promotes playing a proper army that takes skill, not no brainer builds with a billion shots and a million power dices.I didnt design the system, but I like any system that premotes mixed and varied lists instead of easy mode lists. All armies get penalties for the good stuff and bonuses for the "bad", so its the same for everyone. Nothing stops you from taking a strong army either, but you will get less bonuses from comp (which depending on the tournament rules can be either +VP bonus or soft scores).

It's probably just me, but it looks like they've stripped every good item from the army book and given you penalties for taking them. What are you supposed to take now? To have a balanced list, you're going to be under heavy penalties...

You get punished for taking good choices multiple times. You can still get 1 of each good unit. The penalties are also static while the +pts scales with unit sizes. You break even if you take a unit of 18 spear saurus with FC for bonuses and then an EotG + 2nd terradon unit.

You can still fit in a lot of toys, but you need som softer choices to balance it up, which in LMs case is saurus.

 

[Dumbledore]

I must agree that I find Khakorlot's opinion quite cretinous. The one and only reason for the comp is to strike a certain balance. Who cares if some uber or common choices are removed? The point is simply to shift the definition of what is "powerful", to reform the game into a different dynamic at which OnG, Ogres, the old Beastmen etc can compete on equal footing to Daemons and Dark Elves. The comp also prevents no single choice, only a combination of hard units. You list each comp as being "stripped". This is false - each comped choice is simply made more or less costly a decision.

Now moving away from the tedious and slightly aggravated discussion of the merits of comp - fair enough with the terradons, if you can get some I really would as 2x3or4 is very very useful. I really would advise against bigger saurus units, IMO MSU gives you many more tactical options.

Also I thoroughly approve of the sword of might as well as the decisions regarding your lvl 1 priest and no-extra-dice slann. I was going to suggest making the slann the BSB with warbanner, but I now see that that is comped on both fronts. Be careful of getting charged by things with combat res then. One excellent thing is to flit your slann in and out of a wood as needed if no bunker is ready.

One possible thing you could do is to drop the ranked skinks by three and add a kroxigor. Then you get a 3x5 unit with a little punch, but less disposable at 110 points (though musician is worth considering). I also think that little skrox units look very cool

 

[Sebulba]

I think that's a cool comp system personally. I played in 'Ard boyz once (40k) and it was absurd at what people could do with army lists. My army could not compete as I'm more of a casual player that's been collecting models since middle school (8 years or so).

You can really do some cool, fluffy things with your army. I think you really do have a balanced list. Especially in this type of environment I say try to fit in that skrox unit. You get bonus points and, if used right, can be a good 110-124 point investment (depending on command). Skrox units are fast and have static combat res, something many support units don't have. They can shoot somewhat and they have a pretty tough kroxigor in their midst ready to smack something. "Yeah, but if they get shot a lot of them die and they could kill the kroxigor." Well... if they spend a turn shooting this unit then I think you luck out. In my last game, I didn't lose anyone even after deathmaster snitch charged them (got two turns of shooting thanks to a failed fear test!) If you want the blue table painting's batrep with Lizardmen vs OnG they don't appear to lose anyone either. No one guns for this unit but they are still effective. In my game they killed snitch and a unit of globadiers and in the BTP they route a unit of arrer boys. I mean... limited evidence but does anyone have any to contradict this?
Use them as support and for flanking, they are PERFECT for flanking. Much better than terradons. The only thing I could think of that would be better is either COR or a stegadon but even then stegs are primary targets and COR have stupidity... In this tournament hopefully they won't let you down!