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7th Ed. 2000pts [unexperienced]

Phoenix49
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Phoenix49

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Hey guys, I decided to offer myself a new army for Xmas, I'm new to Lizardmen and this forum, im a quite experienced Dark Elf player so I know the game rules, but before I throw myself out there to test my new army I'd like some feedback about a starter list I have. Is the list legal according to BRB + army book rules?
Is there something I shouldnt use, ever, becoz...I just shouldnt (an unspoken convention of the "NEVER USE EXECUTIONERS IF U CAN TAKE MORE BLACK GUARD" type). Enough talk, my list:


--Lords & Heroes--

Saurus Oldblood [General], Cold One, Blade of Realities, Enchanted Shield, Light armour
(joins COC unit)

Saurus Scar-Veteran [BSB],
option 1)Shield of the Mirrored Pool, Sword of Might, Light armour (magic defensive)
option 2)Hide of the Cold Ones, Great Weapon (survival)
(joins TG unit)

Skink Priest, Level 2, Ancient Stegadon /w EotG,
option 1)Diadem of Power, Dispel Scroll (magic defensive)
option 2)Rod of the Storm, Itxi Grubs (magic offensive)

--Core--

15x Saurus Warriors, Spears, full command
10x Skink Skirmishers
10x Skink Skirmishers

--Special--

6x Chameleon Skins
3x Terradon Riders
17x Temple Guard, full command
5x Cold One Riders, full command, Sun Standard


Total: 1996/1997pts

There you go :) The points difference in the Total represents the different options of the BSB (1 points difference if I take option 2).

Alternative : Take away the Warriors' musician and replace the Sun Standard for the Fear banner to the 18 man strong TG unit.
 
Well, i like your list in general, but i would make a few changes.

Change the temple guard for another unit of saurus warriors with spears, they are much cheaper and more useful as you change a little of armour save for a big number of attacks, and then you have a place to put a unit of kroxigors or a little unit of cold one riders, and also get points to use in a salamader, for example. In fact, it's advisable to use the temple guard only when there's a slann in play, because of their special rule thatmakes them immune to psycology when acting with a slann.

The same goes for the chamaleons (i'm not a big fan of them), i find another unit of terradons much more useful than those expensive skinks.

Maybe another cold one would be great in order to make that unit stronger and not notice it in close combat if one of them dies.

Buy a cold one for the scar veteran, it's cheap and so useful (and you can put him in a unit of saurus infantry and make them immune to fear).

Better the deffensive magic option; ony use skink priest as offensive if yo use 2 of them at the same time.

I don't really like the Blade of realities, as it is only useful for big animals such as hydras or giants, because if you try to use it against, for example, a great daemon, it's no use because of it's high leadership. I prefer to get more strenght in a cheaper way (such as great weapon with the venom of the frog when on foot, or spear with the venom when mounted, or even the sword of might), but that's only my opinion (due to my friend's good luck when throwing dice :().

The Hide of the cold ones is great, but too expensive to use it on a scar-veteran, for then you can't buy him a magic weapon. I prefer the cold ones to give the saurus heroes a better armour save.
 
a Hydra has a Ld of 8 or 9 (from the handlers) and giants are usually 8.
i tryed out a unit of 20 temple guard and they weren't really worth it. wit ha slann they become ITP and Stuborn wich really helps.
a champion in a saurus unit is not really necessary unless you plan to put a hero in there, and even then scar vets and old bloods are quite capable of winning challenges.
with only 5 cold ones with a champion you risk your ouldblood getting shot to death if he is in that unit as he can be targed separately
chameleon skinks seem very expensive for +1BS and scout
 
Thanks for your answers, I've got some comments and questions:

1) A Hydra has leadership 6 (unmodified Leadership which is what the Blade tests against).

2)I've noticed that generally in this forum people to say that Champions arent worth it in units unless there's a hero? Why's that? I think that if the front rank of a unit gets wiped out, you don't get attacks. If you have a champion, he will always get to strike back (with 3 S4 attacks, kinda awesome to the 2 S3 attacks im used to from dark elves).

3)Chameleon Skins don't seem that expensive for a unit that has a high survivability against shooting, has Scout ability (I love Shades and I've always used them to great success), and a 6" movement. Pretty damn good march blockers/warmachine hunters as I see it, and 6 of them cost just as much as 10 Skink Skirmishers...I fail to see the "expensive part" that you're talking about

4)You said that my Oldblood will get shot to death in a unit of 5 COC? I don't get that, why? Because of the "Look out sir!" rule? Because I'll b honest : i've never, ever, ever used that rule in any of my games, ever.

5)Are Warriors with Hand Weapons (but no Spear upgrade) ever worth it? Or is 1pt per model always the way to go?

6)Temple Guard seem like a pretty good unit, Halberds, good saves, +1 WS...are they really the same as a unit of Warriors?

I'm here to learn and get persuaded that I'm wrong so that I adapt, please give any feedback u can!
 
forgot that the blade tests with unmodified leadership... never really interested me since i use slann allways.

saurus with spears fight in 2 ranks anyway, and a champion is the cost of a model... they are quite expensive and 1 more model beats 1 S4 attack the way i see it. as for spears, for 1 point/model you get 10 extra WS3 S4 attacks, so you have 20 instead of 10 in combat (assuming nothing dies, but you get the point) so i say it's worth it.

you don't get a "Lo,S!" roll in a unit of 5 models including a champion, it needs to have 5 models without the champion as per BRB errata so the oldblood can be targeted separately with shooting and spells

i don't like chameleons... terradons usually fill the role of war machiene hunters and march blockers, and they are a bit more reliable than scouts (you might not have terrain in a good position to scout effectively). terradons fly 20 and can still shoot while skink move 6, and hit at 5's or 6's mostly (don't know if war machiene crews are considered skirmishers or not) and thats in short range. also at T2 and no save they will have to take a panic check whenever they get shot at (probably) and if they lose 2 models (unit of 6) they won't rally. a unit of 10 skirmishers has more firepower and will be harder to panic and can afford to lose 5 models before they don't rally.

TG's are quite expensive for what they do, they have a better save than the saurus, either 2+ or S5 attacks and WS4 but other than that they are just more expensive saurus, with a slann they become great (ITP and Stubborn) but otherwise your are better off with saurus, M4 makes it hard to get an effective flank charge, or any charge for that matter, and while saurus have spears to fight back, the TG's only have 1 rank wich can be wiped on a charge

thats all i have, hope it helps
 
The problem with champions is that for the amount of points you are spending upgrading to a champion you could pretty much just buy another whole rank and file model, and when your normal trooper has two attacks, then you are buying three attacks for the price of four, and one wound for the price of two. people buy them if they are trying to keep a hero that is in the unit from getting challenged at an inconvenient time, and perhaps being killed.

Some people think terradons can do what chameleons do (in the way of marchblocking and getting on your opponent's nerves and such) better than chameleons. I like them both myself, and in the end it comes down to your individual play style and strategies.

Occasionally, HW-armed sauruses can be good for holding a position and taking fewer casualties than those with spears, but generally spear-saurus are more useful overall because of the immense volume of attacks they can throw out.

The best use for TG is as Slann protection, but a single unit of ten on their own can act as a good support unit as well, so don't think they are useless when they are unaccompanied by a toad. Many enemies simply cannot get through the 2+ save, and their improved WS is helpful, as normal Saurus's low WS can be annoying against elite opponents like WoC.

Can't really give any advice about an Oldblood, being a devout Slann-user... but the Blade of Realities has always looked very good to me. I would not assume that it is only useful on low-Ld targets... I have played enough games where somebody's Ld 10 general has failed a test and died a horrible death (It's funniest if he does it on a Tomb Kings curse).
 
Ok, so, I fiddled around a bit, and came down to this list:

Lords & Heroes
Saurus Oldblood [General], Cold One, Blade of Realities, Enchanted Shield, Light armour

Skink Priest, Level 2, Ancient Stegadon /w EotG, Diadem of Power, Dispel Scroll

Core
15x Saurus Warriors, Spears, standard bearer
15x Saurus Warriors, Spears, standard bearer
10x Skink Skirmishers
10x Skink Skirmishers

Special
3x Terradon Riders
5x Cold One Riders, full command
3x Kroxigors - 165
1x Stegadon - 235

Total: 1994pts

I removed the BSB coz in the end, his purpose distracted him from his use, so the points were much better invested in some more heavy support in the form of Kroxigors and a Stegadon. I know this will probably result in people commenting on the Kroxigors, but let's see.
 
regarding the champion for spear saurus: unless you lose 10 models in combat it deson't matter that he is a champion except that 1 extra attack. since the unit fights in 2 ranks, the model that should be removed from the front rank instead of teh champion is removed from teh 2nd rank thus making him rather useless.
he's more usefull for DE i guess since its 2 WS4 attacks in any unit beside spearmen, going to S4 or S6 even. skaven on the other hand only buy champions to protact characters from challenges, in a skaven army champions are useless since they can't kill a thing... nor can the other models in the unit but thats not the point, it all depends on the army and on the player aswell... if you want to trade 1 attack for 2 and 1W for 2 its your choice, i preffer the extra saurus
 
I like this second list much more than the first one, because with this list you have 2 units of saurus that can stand a charge without being slaughtered, and therefore act as an anvil, and then some heavy support as the kroxigors and stegadon to act as the hammer.

The skink skirmishers are used in almost the same way as the harpies in your dark elves army (redirection of charges and everything), and the terradons is used as a fast cavalry (in fact, that's what they are) capable of flying, wich is great to get flanks and backs, because if they charge from the back, as they are classified as cavalry (and of course because their poer of 2 for each model), they will give you the bonuses from charging.

The cold one riders (as you will already know), are able for themselves of slaughtering any unit if they charge. Only one thing, i would take out the captain and the musician of the unit in order to get the points for another cold one, better to have it in 6 in case you lose anyone by enemy shooting.

One good piece of advice: if you only have 1 unit of terradons, better make it of 4 models instead of 3, because if you lose one of them, you don't lose the unit power of 5 to help your charges.

When i (and that's my own personal opinion) want to have a deffensive priest, i prefer him to go on foot, for it's much cheaper and allows you to get more more miniatures (for example, a salamander, they are very useful, another unit of skink skirmishers, another unit of saurus...)

Oh! i almost forgot, better to have the saurus in rows of 6 than in rows of 5.
 
terradons are NOT fast cavlary. they are a flying unit, ergo do not recieve bonus for flank/rear charges and don't negate ranks, wich is the primary role of fast cav.
(BRB says units of flyers act like skirmishers)
 
I'm pretty sure Skirmishers receive the bonus (+1 or +2) for flank and rear charges as long as they have US5, they just don't get bonus for their own ranks and dont negate enemy ranks when charging from flank/rear.

Throwing another idea for a list, based on the EotG comment above. I really want to use one so I put some more magic support, put a scar vet BSB for the COC and decided to put my general on foot with my anvil. I don't really like the idea of 6-rank Saurus coz they've got big bases so against a normal-base 5-ranked unit u'll lose the extra attacks anyways if ur opponent isnt masochistic and tries to engage ur entire front rank. Also, u need 18 models to reach 2 ranks, its 36 additional pts per unit.


Lords & Heroes
Saurus Oldblood [General], Blade of Realities, Enchanted Shield, Light armour

Saurus Scar-Veteran [BSB], Cold One, Spear, Venom of the Firefly Frog, Glyph Necklace, Light armour, Shield

Skink Priest, Level 2, Ancient Stegadon /w EotG, Dispel Scroll
Skink Priest, Level 2, Cloak of Feathers, Diadem of Power

Core
15x Saurus Warriors, Spears, standard bearer
15x Saurus Warriors, Spears, standard bearer
10x Skink Skirmishers
10x Skink Skirmishers

Special
3x Terradon Riders
5x Cold One Riders, standard bearer
3x Kroxigors

Total: 1996pts


I understand the idea of having 4x Terradons for the US8 vs US6 thingy, and also the extra COR in case one of them dies but...I've never needed those things, I always take rly good care of my units. The only testing that needs to b done is for the Kroxigors, and whether or not the Priest/EotG combo is worth it.
 
ahh yeh, they get the +1/+2 for the charge, but mostly you want to deny the enemy the 3 he gets from ranks :P also the EotG priest allways did its job for me... burning aligment is nice and the ward save saved my skinks from fleeing due to shooting :D
 
If you look at the lizardmen army book the terradon riders are described as "flying cavalry", and then in the warhammer rule book the cavalry does negate bonus ranks to the enemy, just the same as the bretonian's knights of the pegasus.

A 5 miniatures row in the small bases is 10 cm long (sorry, in spain we don't use inches), just the same as 4 of our saurus warriors, and the ones in both corners fight, so a row of 6 saurus will always fight and if the unit have spears and one model in the first row is in touch, the one in the second row beneath him is also, you get 24 attacks against a normal sized unit of a row of 5 (and every ranked unit is going to be at least 5 models long because that's the only way you can get the bonuses).

I don't like the idea of 2 skink priests when there's no slann in the army (they are sooooo fragile...), but that is something for you to try. But it's a better idea to give the diadem to the priest on the engine, as he is much more protected, and that is an item you need to have for at least 2 or 3 turns when you play deffensive magic.

The BSB is a great idea, and the unit of cold ones will benefit from that because of thestupidity test they have to take.

Another thing that is great from the EotG is that you can charge with him and use the Burning Alignment the same turn against the unit you have just charged.

P.S.: Hope you understand the explanation about the rows of 5 and 6, trying to explain something like that in english is quite complicated... :(
 
the fact that terradons are flying cav only means that they use the profile for cav, they are treated like units of flyers in all other respects (BRB p 69, under flying cav)
i'll try to translate the cm/inch part if it helps: basically you have 25mm square bases and most infantry has 20mm square. a front rank of 5 for nromal infantry means 100mm while a front rank of 4 saurus equals the same. per corner-to-corner rule 2 more saurus can fight for a total of 12 models wit hspears ergo 24 attacks ( you should know this by now, but just in case)
the BSB only provides rerolls to break tests, not all pshychology tests, you only roll for stupidty once. he can still be usefull tough as even insane courage can be achieved by cold blooded Ld rolls with reroll... only managed to get double 1 on casting tough... somehow i never get that on Ld tests
carefull when charging with the EotG since a smar oponent will direct all his attacks to the skink above and with only WS 2 and T2 he will have a lot of saves to take.... S5 and above is deadly since you only pass so many rolls at 4+ and 2 fails = dead priest, no more EotG and no more diadem for magic defence
 
I perfectly understand the 6-models rank theory, but the flaw of it is the corners : you will only fight with BOTH corners (6 warriors in total) if the enemy charges you in a perfect line that will place his 5 models in such a way that they touch you at both corners. The chance of that happening is...very low. I mean, 2mm to the left or the right, and you only have 5 models attacking anyways. So for the extremely low chance of these 5-model ranks to charge you in a perfect match with your 6-model rank, I don't think losing the rank bonuses (by putting 15 models in a 6,6,3 formation) or paying more points (by buying 3 more models for 36pts to form a 18-model unit in a 6,6,6 formation) is worth it.

As far as the EotG and the diadem goes, yes you're right I'll swap the Diadem with the Dispel scroll. Against a no-magic list I can even replace that dispel scroll with the Jaguar Banner for my COC, that banner existed in 6th Edition Dark Elves and it was monstrously good and useful. I know that T2 is low but T3 isnt that much better when u got no armour, so just as I learned to play with my 2 lvl 2 Sorceresses and protect them, I will get used to Skinks, altho in this case, one is flying (talk about evasion maneouvres...) and the other one is mounted on a Dinosaur that gives him a 2+ armour save.

I can't wait to finish putting together and painting my 1st 2000pts, so I can get some battlefield experience soon!
 
the problem is hat when an aopponenet charges you he has to bring as many modles in BtB as mossible from both sides, so if he does have enough movement left on a charge to touch both your corners he will have to do so. i don't like 6 wide units either... i'd rather have 2 ranks in the 1st round of comat, and with a bit of luck, i'll keep them in further rounds aswell
 
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