TOW Lizardmen Old World Wishlist

[Huinipachutli]

At the initial launch of the Old World, it looked like only a select few armies would get any attention.
But with the success in sales and popularity of Seraphon in AoS, a revisit of the Lizardmen army is mostly inevitable - beyond the Legends anyway.

Since Developers are sometimes known to frequent forums to find out public perception, I think it would be a good idea to collect all the wishlists of this forum in one place.

I'll start.

I'd like to see some of the Rank and File Skinks returning. Especially the Red Crested skinks of Warhammer Total War. A low toughness great weapon frenzied infantry is interesting. Though they would have to have a rule that makes them not strike last on the turn they charge to be viable at all.

Are there other additions or changes you'd like to see?

Edit:
Reoccurring Suggestions:

• Coldblooded applies to all Leadership tests without exceptions
• Scaly Skin should use the Armoured Hide(X) rule
  
• Slann can join a unit of temple guard in the second rank and is put on a 60x60mm base. It has the Firing Platform special rule for 360° Line of sight. May or may not have large target.
• Remove the restriction for Oldbloods and Skink Priests, it is silly.
• Kroxigor has a native 4+ Armour save
• Salamanders need urgent attention

 

[Kalisto]

I read exact the opposite at, since Seraphon are selling well in AoS, they will not be updated for Oldworld. However your is a good idea.

• Except for a generally balancing of mostly of units that lack a lot of special rules compared to all other in Oldworld and reducing of the costs for many other units (salamanders, saurus warrios and the slann especially)and a revisitation of cold blooded rule it would be even nice to have an own arcane journal with some more magic items (we have really few ones, and even fewer really useful and not situationals)
  
• I would NOT like to see skinks and kroxigor in ranks (sorry i don't agree with you)
• I would like to see the Slann back in the temple guard. I don't mind if the models doesn't fit, I play my old slann and GW can even reprint the old one. It's much more oldworld since the slann has always been INSIDE temple guards unit
• I would also like to see the Slann as really good caster. Right now he is just a expensive lv 4 that can be ethereal. NOTHING more....A drake or a gryphon cost the same points and make much more. Our signature lore isn't the best either..
  
• Everyone got a dragon and we suffer a lot to don't have one, why don't create a Coatl? This means a flying mount for a saurus for example.

 

[Ryanj4043]

I'd like to see some of the Rank and File Skinks returning. Especially the Red Crested skinks of Warhammer Total War. A low toughness great weapon frenzied infantry is interesting. Though they would have to have a rule that makes them not strike last on the turn they charge to be viable at all.

I'm in the middle of first draft of a fan made arcane journal and this was the first unit i put in. A move 6 GW weilding, maybe frenzy maybe fuious charge infantry could be really fun on the table.

• I would NOT like to see skinks and kroxigor in ranks (sorry i don't agree with you)

Im fine with this but bringing back Skink cohorts and a kroxigors and razordons as detachments could be interesting and fun.

I would like to see the Slann back in the temple guard. I don't mind if the models doesn't fit, I play my old slann and GW can even reprint the old one. It's much more oldworld since the slann has always been INSIDE temple guards unit

Also this. I love Template guard and i want them to be really good and bring utility.

So things i want to see for lizards:

• A way to run the army without skinks, or Saurus or Slanns. A Red Host of Tehenhuain like army or a new saurus lead army, even if infantry arent good.
• Better magical items. Our ones are a little rough.
• That one restriction on oldbloods and skink priest restriction. Please make it go away
• Better flyers
• Wild suggestion, let Saurus steal a cold one chariot from dark elves, i just find the idea hilarous and want to see some temple guard on a chariot with halberds. Alteratively old blood on stegadon, Same thing but more lizardmeny

 

[discomute]

I think there is zero chance of lizardmen getting anything old world related in terms of models. Perhaps we might get a slight errata for the army book, in which case

- "firing platform" for the Slann (better yet, go back to monstrous infantry)
- "stand & shoot" and "quick shot" to be added to salamanders and razordons, and their price comes with 3 skinks
- "stand & shoot" and "quick shot" (or at least one) being added to blowpipes
- removing the restriction for old blood OR priest per 1000
- rippers can take a standard and a magical standard
- troglodon should have "swiftstride" and "quick shot"
- +1 leadership for skinks, scar vets, old bloods and slann. +2 leadership for skink heros and priests.

This alone would make a fantastic addition to casual games. Only the change from Slann to Monstrous Infantry and s&s and qs for blowpipes would make a difference competitively, and even then we aren't winning tournaments. Of the 50+ old world armies in Australia's biggest tournament, zero were lizardmen which shows you what the competitive community think of our list.

If we are lucky enough to get an arcane journal, well, that's another story...

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

To be honest, I'm eventually expecting Lizardmen to make a full return to TOW... once they've made a full replacement Seraphon range for AoS so that they can transfer the Warhammer Fantasy range to TOW. Makes sense to reuse the 'old' models once a full army's worth of new ones have been released.

As to what I'd like to see, I can certainly list the following:

• Skink Skirmishers given a big points hike, to around 9 points per model... I can't understand why Warhammer Fantasy developers continue to want to make spamming Skink clouds the most competitively viable playstyle. The Lizardmen army is meant to be about Saurus first and foremost with Skinks in a supporting role, not nothing but Skinks (at least in the standard army list anyway). They don't need nerfing in profile, just made more expensive so they can't be farted out en masse at the expense of other units.
• Saurus need to be returned to their original 11 points per model points value for similar reasons.
• When the Warhammer Fantasy range makes its return to TOW, an Arcane Journal will likely come with it... which means Armies of Infamy! The most obvious ideas would be a Skink-focussed army (allowing things like Skink Cohorts, and by extension Skrox, Skink Horned One Cavalry and Skinks with short bows to come back, plus a comparatively elite unit of Skink infantry such as Red Crests), and a Temple Guard-themed 'Eternity Warders' army (allowing for Temple Guard characters, Slann to join Temple Guard units, perhaps a Temple Guard Monstrous Cavalry unit that is more imaginative and better-named than Aggrodons, perhaps the ability for a Slann to ride a Stegadon as per Mazdamundi, and perhaps some especially grand monsters).
• Named characters will also be something we see if we get an Arcane Journal... I could certainly see one of the major characters returning (Kroq-Gar would be obvious given he's an option in the Carnosaur kit), plus a couple of new less well-known ones, perhaps a foot Saurus and a Skink.
• An Arcane Journal will also give us some more Magic Items to play with... I'd like some of the more obscure ones such as the Dragonfly of Quicksilver (from the 7th Edition book) to return.
• The return of good army special rules that we once had - Scaly Skin (though now using the Armoured Hide special rule that exists in TOW now) and Cold-Blooded, to give us back those thematic rules that once defined our army. Even if they only come back as part of an Army of Infamy (like Dwarfs' better Resolute rule from 8th only appearing in the Royal Clans Army of Infamy), it'd be better than nothing.

• Everyone got a dragon and we suffer a lot to not have one, why don't create a Coatl? This means a flying mount for a saurus for example

Far from everyone has a full-on dragon... I can only think of 6 armies off the top of my head:

• The Elf factions
• Warriors of Chaos
• Tomb Kings
• Vampire Counts

6 out of 16 factions. True, other factions have flying monsters (Greenskins having Wyverns, Dawi-Zharr with Bale Tauruses, Bretonnia with Hippogryphs, Empire with Griffons) but only six factions have the full-on Dragon profile to beef up their characters with (and in Elves' case their characters themselves are pretty weak with Strength and Toughness 3 base). Rather than trying to turn this into an arms' race, I'd prefer to see GW introduce a few more counters to Monster-riding characters. Perhaps restore Cannons to their 8th Edition profile (at least where Strength and anti-armour are concerned, not the laser-guided part... with their extra wounds and Ward and regeneration saves Monster riders are less likely to be one-shotted by 8th Cannon profiles now), perhaps introduce some more spells that are anti-monster in nature. Of course there are counters to monster army builds already, but a few more wouldn't hurt to stop the moaners from moaning about it.

 

[discomute]

To be honest, I'm eventually expecting Lizardmen to make a full return to TOW... once they've made a full replacement Seraphon range for AoS so that they can transfer the Warhammer Fantasy range to TOW. Makes sense to reuse the 'old' models once a full army's worth of new ones have been released.

As to what I'd like to see, I can certainly list the following:

• Skink Skirmishers given a big points hike, to around 9 points per model... I can't understand why Warhammer Fantasy developers continue to want to make spamming Skink clouds the most competitively viable playstyle. The Lizardmen army is meant to be about Saurus first and foremost with Skinks in a supporting role, not nothing but Skinks (at least in the standard army list anyway). They don't need nerfing in profile, just made more expensive so they can't be farted out en masse at the expense of other units.
• Saurus need to be returned to their original 11 points per model points value for similar reasons.
• When the Warhammer Fantasy range makes its return to TOW, an Arcane Journal will likely come with it... which means Armies of Infamy! The most obvious ideas would be a Skink-focussed army (allowing things like Skink Cohorts, and by extension Skrox, Skink Horned One Cavalry and Skinks with short bows to come back, plus a comparatively elite unit of Skink infantry such as Red Crests), and a Temple Guard-themed 'Eternity Warders' army (allowing for Temple Guard characters, Slann to join Temple Guard units, perhaps a Temple Guard Monstrous Cavalry unit that is more imaginative and better-named than Aggrodons, perhaps the ability for a Slann to ride a Stegadon as per Mazdamundi, and perhaps some especially grand monsters).
• Named characters will also be something we see if we get an Arcane Journal... I could certainly see one of the major characters returning (Kroq-Gar would be obvious given he's an option in the Carnosaur kit), plus a couple of new less well-known ones, perhaps a foot Saurus and a Skink.
• An Arcane Journal will also give us some more Magic Items to play with... I'd like some of the more obscure ones such as the Dragonfly of Quicksilver (from the 7th Edition book) to return.
• The return of good army special rules that we once had - Scaly Skin (though now using the Armoured Hide special rule that exists in TOW now) and Cold-Blooded, to give us back those thematic rules that once defined our army. Even if they only come back as part of an Army of Infamy (like Dwarfs' better Resolute rule from 8th only appearing in the Royal Clans Army of Infamy), it'd be better than nothing.

Far from everyone has a full-on dragon... I can only think of 6 armies off the top of my head:

• The Elf factions
• Warriors of Chaos
• Tomb Kings
• Vampire Counts

6 out of 16 factions. True, other factions have flying monsters (Greenskins having Wyverns, Dawi-Zharr with Bale Tauruses, Bretonnia with Hippogryphs, Empire with Griffons) but only six factions have the full-on Dragon profile to beef up their characters with (and in Elves' case their characters themselves are pretty weak with Strength and Toughness 3 base). Rather than trying to turn this into an arms' race, I'd prefer to see GW introduce a few more counters to Monster-riding characters. Perhaps restore Cannons to their 8th Edition profile (at least where Strength and anti-armour are concerned, not the laser-guided part... with their extra wounds and Ward and regeneration saves Monster riders are less likely to be one-shotted by 8th Cannon profiles now), perhaps introduce some more spells that are anti-monster in nature. Of course there are counters to monster army builds already, but a few more wouldn't hurt to stop the moaners from moaning about it.

Great post but you totally lost me at boosting cannons. Because the issue isn't monsters it's monsters as mounts with magic items.

Boost a canon the Troglodon and bastiladon become unplayable in social games, and actually the Troglodon nearly is.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

What I want to see

1- A reason to play large Saurus Blocks. This will probably take a change to core mechanics, but I don't want every list to just be 5 units of skinks
2- A level 3 wizard option in the form of a Relic Slann. Not as open on the lores as the slann, but something between the Slann and the Skink Priest
3- MSGA- Make Slann Great Again. The are so underwhelming and so expensive.
4- Skink cavalry. Those new models are great. Tichi Hutchi's Raiders are cool. Light Cavalry without stupid would be neat. Also a cool special choice that could be added without requiring a skink hero, so flying cav needs a hero, but light cav doesn't
5- A reason to use salamanders/razordons again. They are just pointless right now
6- More wounds on the Bastiladon. For one, its actually a bulkier model than the stegadon, and two, I want it over a unit strength of 5 so close order means something
7- sacred spawnings. So much flavor and options there, would be great to have them back
8- cold blooded to work on all LD checks, especially stupidity
9- Krox should be a natural 4+ save. They are just so lack luster compared to any other ogre equivalent in the game and their gimmick of charging through skinks is fluffy but not very useful.
10- A Krox hero unit

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

Great post but you totally lost me at boosting cannons. Because the issue isn't monsters it's monsters as mounts with magic items.

Boost a canon the Troglodon and bastiladon become unplayable in social games, and actually the Troglodon nearly is.

Fair enough, I admit I gave less thought to non-ridden Monsters... though I'm unsure on what else could be done to deal with the ridden Monster issue other than nerfing them somehow. After all, to deny ridden Monsters the benefit of Ward Saves would make the game a syndrome of 'one rule for some characters, another rule for others'. All characters, ridden or not, should be able to enjoy the benefits of a Ward Save.

Perhaps more anti-Monster spells is the answer as I also mentioned, or perhaps give Ridden Monsters a chance to run amok when they're wounded or something, which would make them less of an auto-take.

 

[Niezck]

I'd honestly take a buff to Saurus - which could come either with a points reduction or an overall boost to the infantry mechanics in the game - and fixing of the Slann to not be outright the worst level 4 wizard in the game for some reason. Anything else is just gravy. I'd even take a continuation of half of our units being terrible if they just fixed Slann and Saurus...

My suggestions would be:
1) Saurus down to 11 points per model.
2) Slann become level 5 wizards innately, same points cost.
3) Slann either revert to monstrous infantry or rebase to 60mm square and regain their rules to join Temple Guard units.
4) Now onto the pure gravy, remove the restrictions on Skink Priests.
5) Remove the restrictions on Ripperdactyls and Terradons.
6) Chameleon Skinks cannot be targetted while outside of 12".
7) Salamanders to just act like a regular fire thrower with Move + Shoot.
8) Increase Razordon shots and give them the detachment rule, with Saurus/TG getting regimental.
9) Solar Engine & Engine of the Gods gain +1 to their bound power level if a Slann is within 24".

That'd about do it I think.

 

[discomute]

Fair enough, I admit I gave less thought to non-ridden Monsters... though I'm unsure on what else could be done to deal with the ridden Monster issue other than nerfing them somehow. After all, to deny ridden Monsters the benefit of Ward Saves would make the game a syndrome of 'one rule for some characters, another rule for others'. All characters, ridden or not, should be able to enjoy the benefits of a Ward Save.

Perhaps more anti-Monster spells is the answer as I also mentioned, or perhaps give Ridden Monsters a chance to run amok when they're wounded or something, which would make them less of an auto-take.

Roughly
- a max wounds of 8
- monstersous creatures have -2 AC to stomp and behemoths do not (easier to dodge).
- If monsters are ridden then swiftstride becomes D3
- if monsters are ridden they lose close order

Are easy to implement changes.

I'd honestly take a buff to Saurus - which could come either with a points reduction or an overall boost to the infantry mechanics in the game - and fixing of the Slann to not be outright the worst level 4 wizard in the game for some reason. Anything else is just gravy. I'd even take a continuation of half of our units being terrible if they just fixed Slann and Saurus...

My suggestions would be:
1) Saurus down to 11 points per model.
2) Slann become level 5 wizards innately, same points cost.
3) Slann either revert to monstrous infantry or rebase to 60mm square and regain their rules to join Temple Guard units.
4) Now onto the pure gravy, remove the restrictions on Skink Priests.
5) Remove the restrictions on Ripperdactyls and Terradons.
6) Chameleon Skinks cannot be targetted while outside of 12".
7) Salamanders to just act like a regular fire thrower with Move + Shoot.
8) Increase Razordon shots and give them the detachment rule, with Saurus/TG getting regimental.
9) Solar Engine & Engine of the Gods gain +1 to their bound power level if a Slann is within 24".

That'd about do it I think.

I don't actually mind the rules for TG and guardian, adding Slann back into units would be cool but the issue is the base sizes no longer align.

Also putting a Slann in a unit will confer the same problem with their 90 degree vision.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Easy enough to fix the base size.

Putting him back in the unit would be a huge improvement given the number of spells that require you to be in the unit.

It would also fix the large target/guardian shooting issue.

Right now if you want multiple ranks to shoot Temple guard, best thing to do is have the unit shoot the slann. You'll get more shots into the guard since all the ranks can see the large target

 

[Huinipachutli]

I'm going to add reoccurring things that multiple users point out to the Original Post. That way there will be some resemblance of consensus. A lot of you have very good ideas I think.

I would NOT like to see skinks and kroxigor in ranks (sorry i don't agree with you)

I certainly didn't mention any Skink & Krox, so I'm confused who you are disagreeing with.

I'll add a few odd suggestions from old editions in an attempt to be unique. As well as some controversial opinions.
TLDR: 5th edition was the greatest Lizardmen edition.

• - Terradons could have the option of having 2 skink riders instead of one. That would make them more effective as fast cavalry.
• - Standard bearers are renamed to "Totem Bearer". The BSB is now the BTB. Just for flavour.
• - Restore Cold-blooded to effect all leadership tests without exception.
• - Slann is no longer a large target, can join saurus units in the second rank and is mounted on a 60x60mm base. They have firing platform too.
  - A: Restore some of the melee capabilities of the Slann. Give him 3-4 Attacks and Strength 4 with alright WS.
  - B: Make the Slann essentially a lvl 5 Wizard at casting.
• - increase the range of blowpipes to 16" or 18".
• - Return of the Lizardman (Short?) bow
• - Chameleon Skinks gets some form of innate missile defence again.
• - Kroxigor have 4+ Scaly skin and an optional hero Option.
• - Troglodon could become an effective anti-dragon artillery unit: Spit Venom causes D6 wounds at -3 AP on hit with a range of 24".
• - Salamanders can spout flames again or move & shoot.
• - Remove most restrictions if 0-1 per 1000 pts and whatnot.
• - Change the name of Aggrodons and Ripperdactyls: from a paleontologist perspective, these names are a shame.
• - Remove unnecessary randomness. Make ark of Sotek heal one wound of a nearby jungle swarm each turn instead of D3 on a 4+. It saves 2 unnecessary dice rolls. Make Razordons multiple shots a constant number like multiple shots (4). Saves on more unnecessary dice rolls. Remove the leadership test for primeval roar.
  
• - Remove all Magic items across all armies and books, or make a separate scenario/playset systems in which magic items are not allowed

(New Units probably belong in suggestion for Seraphon in AoS rather than here)

• - Add rules for some AoS units, such as Aggrodon Saurus Monstrous Cavalry and Raptadons skink fast cavalry.
• - Great Crested Skink as a lord option that can ride a dreaded Quetzalcoatlus Great Terrordactyl. Finally a bootleg dragon of our own! Give us a Magic Item option of innate 4+ Ward Save so we can make our opponents seethe too.
• - Long necked dinosaur monster option please. Make it a skink regiment transport that unloads a unit of 20 HW&Shield poisoned skinks when it is charged or charging. The skinks line up around it as a coherent unit, space displaced by Dino counts towards rank bonus. Silly idea. Possibly also a mount option for the Slann.
• - I would like to see Coatl returning, but it is so hard to find a niche for it. We already have a great Wizard option. Another flying Dragon type monster isn't bad though - but I'd personally rather see a Dread Pterodactyl behemoth type ridden monster (Though they aren't mutually exclusive).

 

[discomute]

How do we all feel about cold ones strength and toughness? I played dark elves last night and was surprised to find that their knights at st4/t4, and that mounting a character on a cold one gave +1t. So therefore shouldn't our knights be st5/t5 and characters get +1t out of it? Also shouldn't carnosaurs be giving at least +2t given that dragons give +3t?

I feel like we are getting penalised for having good strength and toughness in the first place.

 

[Ryanj4043]

How do we all feel about cold ones strength and toughness? I played dark elves last night and was surprised to find that their knights at st4/t4, and that mounting a character on a cold one gave +1t. So therefore shouldn't our knights be st5/t5 and characters get +1t out of it? Also shouldn't carnosaurs be giving at least +2t given that dragons give +3t?

I feel like we are getting penalised for having good strength and toughness in the first place.

A thing i noticed is that i think mounts adding toughness is a representing really of "who toughness is higher" or some kind of joint capped toughness. Elves are squishy (as they should be it makes them easier to wreck grudges on) so they need something like a cold one to be as tough as a saurus. We're just built differently.

You say a dragon gives +3T but thats only to elves to get them to 6T which chaos lords on dragon and OB on carnos also hit. It seems to be a bit of a cap. A rider on big thing is only every T6 kinda regardless of whos riding it.

 

[discomute]

A thing i noticed is that i think mounts adding toughness is a representing really of "who toughness is higher" or some kind of joint capped toughness. Elves are squishy (as they should be it makes them easier to wreck grudges on) so they need something like a cold one to be as tough as a saurus. We're just built differently.

You say a dragon gives +3T but thats only to elves to get them to 6T which chaos lords on dragon and OB on carnos also hit. It seems to be a bit of a cap. A rider on big thing is only every T6 kinda regardless of whos riding it.

I guess the question is - is that a good thing?

I don't see why we can't be the "strength and toughness army". Elves have WS and Init coming out of their ears so why can't we be slightly better in some stats, especially if we pay for it.

Our armour is no where near what a dragon can get so I don't see why a carnosaur can't be at toughness 7.

 

[Ryanj4043]

Now thats another question i feel wholely unqualified to answer, could we be tougher, that be nice. Carnos at T7 might be one of the tougher models as even Tyrants on Stonehorns are only T6. I'm not sure what army we are in TOW or were in WHFB but i do know we get a surprising number of attacks per model. OB have 1 attack over dwarf kings, DElfs dreadlord and Helfs Princes. We get this extra attack at the cost of Initative on saurus, which is something that i know i dont like cause i don't like half my front dead before i can even strike, but looking back to 6th this has always been a problem for us.

Also while im here, more techy stuff like plate equvilents and warmachine like rules on hunting packs and stegadons

 

[discomute]

Now thats another question i feel wholely unqualified to answer, could we be tougher, that be nice. Carnos at T7 might be one of the tougher models as even Tyrants on Stonehorns are only T6. I'm not sure what army we are in TOW or were in WHFB but i do know we get a surprising number of attacks per model. OB have 1 attack over dwarf kings, DElfs dreadlord and Helfs Princes. We get this extra attack at the cost of Initative on saurus, which is something that i know i dont like cause i don't like half my front dead before i can even strike, but looking back to 6th this has always been a problem for us.

Also while im here, more techy stuff like plate equvilents and warmachine like rules on hunting packs and stegadons

I actually like the low initiative and ordinary WS in that it adds a lot of flavour for us, as long as we are costed correctly it's fine by me.

I didn't realise elf lords don't get a +1T over their regular counterparts. That makes me feel better that we're not at the same toughness on a cold one as an old blood.

Question really is whether our knights could be st5/t5, st4/tT5 or 4/4. I think frankly there is no reason elves should have knights that are 4/4 thats weird but okay, we should be 5/5 I think.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

Lore wise Carnosaurs should be scarier than dragons.

There are reasons there are no Dragons in Lustria. Carnos and Dread Saurians.

Lizardmen will always be a "slow" army, so yeah we should be tough AND strong

+2 T and Armoured Hide(1) should be what a carno brings.

There are so many ways to get AP -2 or -3 in this edition, heavy armour + shield with no way to get even a 3+ without stupidity is crap. Especially when Dragons can easily get to a 2+/5+ and even a 2+/5+/5+

When you look at it a Troglodon is really +3 T to what is effectively a Level 1 Skink priest. So the bigger badder carno should definitely feel as such.

Knights suffer from the same thing all Heavy Cav suffer from in TOW- 1 wound. While yes, S5/T5 would be great, what I really want is a second wound.

 

[Ryanj4043]

I didn't realise elf lords don't get a +1T over their regular counterparts. That makes me feel better that we're not at the same toughness on a cold one as an old blood.

Them elf bodies are so soft and weak. Best for grudging and feeding to dinos

 

[Wyvernaarch]

Strength 4 on elite cavalry (which dark elves' Cold One Knights are) is a common thing, so not that surprising. Toughness 4 is carried from the 8th edition of Fantasy Battles, I think, where higher toughness or wounds were taken from the mount in case of cavalry.
As for the carnosaur, I don't think it needs +2 T as a bonus, the game has enough problems with overpowered monsters already. 4+ armour save would be good, though, dragons and carnosaurs used to have the same Scaly Skin (4+) rule before.
And cavalry with 2 wounds sounds interesting, the only ones in the game now are our Ripperdactyl and Terradon Riders if I'm not mistaken.