TOW Lizardmen army overview video

[airjamy]

Made some content on our favorite lizards, do let me know what you think!

 

[Haemoglobin]

Saw that clip yesterday! Some really interesting stuff in there.

Hoping for some indepth on how to use skink skirmishers properly in TOW.

Also what are your thoughts on completely ignoring magic? You can get 3 Carnosaurs in your list that way (1x OB, 2x SV) + 2 Ancient Stegs and some Skink Skirmishers

 

[airjamy]

Saw that clip yesterday! Some really interesting stuff in there.

Hoping for some indepth on how to use skink skirmishers properly in TOW.

Also what are your thoughts on completely ignoring magic? You can get 3 Carnosaurs in your list that way (1x OB, 2x SV) + 2 Ancient Stegs and some Skink Skirmishers

Cool, thanks! I do not think ignoring magic fully is a real viable option. You lack the LD9 the Slann brings and you have no more decent dispels. There are imho also 2 good Carno scarvet builds, Meteoric Iron ToP and GW along with Gylph Necklace GW, what are you even giving the third one? You cannot give him a Ward save anymore which is a big issue. So no, i think Slann double Carno is the way to go, with Slann double Engines being the only other somewhat viable alternative, but due to how expensive Skink Priests on Stegs are that does not quite work out.

 

[Kalisto]

Interesting...just a pity you didn't considered wandering deliberation on Slann. It costs a bit more than lore familiar but it allow you two good damage spells and lore familiar on a level 2 (for plague rust for example).

About saurus on cold one i don't agree. I use sometimes Oldlord on cold one with glyph necklace and headman axe (as well as horned one). He is a pain ass. Ok 3 wounds but 360 degree charge and could potentially killing blow a dragonogre? Well I think it's worth it due the comp (like 1 carnosaur limit and so). I have played for example with no magic with 1 oldlord on carnosaur and 1 oldlord on cold one and reached 5th place on 24 (there were some comp of course, like 1 monstrous mount only for characters)

About Salamanders...well they are 2 stars at least. Not so good and pretty costy, but they do their damn work. I run them sometimes (mostly for fun) but I can assure you that 1 salamander in front of infantry can do a good job, the only problem is that if they escape you need a saurus hero to reroll the rally test and have a chance to rally them =)

 

[airjamy]

Interesting...just a pity you didn't considered wandering deliberation on Slann. It costs a bit more than lore familiar but it allow you two good damage spells and lore familiar on a level 2 (for plague rust for example).

About saurus on cold one i don't agree. I use sometimes Oldlord on cold one with glyph necklace and headman axe (as well as horned one). He is a pain ass. Ok 3 wounds but 360 degree charge and could potentially killing blow a dragonogre? Well I think it's worth it due the comp (like 1 carnosaur limit and so). I have played for example with no magic with 1 oldlord on carnosaur and 1 oldlord on cold one and reached 5th place on 24 (there were some comp of course, like 1 monstrous mount only for characters)

About Salamanders...well they are 2 stars at least. Not so good and pretty costy, but they do their damn work. I run them sometimes (mostly for fun) but I can assure you that 1 salamander in front of infantry can do a good job, the only problem is that if they escape you need a saurus hero to reroll the rally test and have a chance to rally them =)

Maybe? I feel that against good lists you definitely need ethereal to stay alive. I mean nice if you have damage spells, but a Slann can die from a single volley of crossbow bolts, it feels just way too dangerous for me to run him without it.

The defensive stats on cold one oldbloods are imho just too poor for the point cost. You pay like close to 250/300 points for a 3 wound T5 model? That is just not worth it to me. Don't forget you can also tank a Killing Blow and just lose it all. I feel 1 X is accurate. Especially since you want to invest points into your second carno. I honestly think LM is just out of the game if you have like rule of 3 with Skinks and only 1 Behemoth kind of stuff, we already are not the greatest faction, does not feel we can take some extra knocks. I mean of course you can still just outplay people, but with similar skill level we will just suffer.

Salamanders maybe are 2? They only have a threat range of 12 inches though including their move. I tried them but was really unimpressed, i can just never line up shots with them. I mean i guess that are fine against specific units like Harpies that try to slip past our lines, but Skinks already deal with that. I do feel you have to compare them to Skinks, and the comparison is just very lackluster.

 

[skycat]

1. sv/oldblood on cold one should be 3X. park a SV on cold one (122pts) behind terrain and they can prevent enemy knights to come close. Otherwise your sv can hit their flank or you can challenge their champion if they wheel the front arc to you.

2. chameleon skink - i would rather take 10skinks without scout. i rate it 2x or below.

 

[discomute]

Made some content on our favorite lizards, do let me know what you think!

Got around to watching it. I think it is the best lizardmen vid I've seen on YT. My notes are as follows:
- elemantalism is fool's gold. I firmly believe that Battle is much better. Hammerhands is a great signature spell for an ethereal slann with a BSB. I've soloed a unit of Peg-knights before.
- the best way to take advantage of the skink rule is to run the skinks up to the face of some knights and shoot them. they probably will declare a charge and that is when you flee (not stand and shoot). Your kroxigor are 19 odd inches away from the knights and should therefore get the charge next turn (regardles of if the skinks rally or not).
- I think you slightly overrate terradons and bastiladons. Perhaps as I don't run elementalism anymore I don't use travel mystical pathway? But Bastiladons shooting is not reliable enough to be a 4/5 imo.
- Can anyone tell me why I see so many lists with Piranha Blade over Giant Blade? Am I missing something? Giant Blade is better and cheaper?
- I agree a SV on a horned one is a reasonable option (character allotment ignored). that sort of movement makes a great war machine / shooter hunter along with decent chaff to flank and rear units
- Saurus infanty is pretty good as far as infantry goes (especially with spears), which is pretty bad.

PS. Kalisto and I have discussed Wandering Deliberations, Headsman's Axe/Horned One and Salamanders a bit, I'm firmly with you on them

 

[Kalisto]

- Battle or elementalism depends mostly about how you play your spells and if you have an ethereal slann or not. I agree that with an ethereal slann battle magic is the way to go. However plague of rust is REALLY strong and have a big range to be an hex (21").
- Can anyone tell me why I see so many lists with Piranha Blade over Giant Blade? Am I missing something? Giant Blade is better and cheaper?

I agree with you to. Giant blade is often better because it's easier to combine with something else good. The -1 AP of the Piranha blade doesn't justify imho the -1 in strength and to don't have armour bane 2. If they should cost the same would be maybe a bit harder to choose. But until then I don't think Piranha blade is an option.

@discomute I don't remember if we agreed or not =)
But it doesn't matter

 

[airjamy]

Got around to watching it. I think it is the best lizardmen vid I've seen on YT. My notes are as follows:
- elemantalism is fool's gold. I firmly believe that Battle is much better. Hammerhands is a great signature spell for an ethereal slann with a BSB. I've soloed a unit of Peg-knights before.
- the best way to take advantage of the skink rule is to run the skinks up to the face of some knights and shoot them. they probably will declare a charge and that is when you flee (not stand and shoot). Your kroxigor are 19 odd inches away from the knights and should therefore get the charge next turn (regardles of if the skinks rally or not).
- I think you slightly overrate terradons and bastiladons. Perhaps as I don't run elementalism anymore I don't use travel mystical pathway? But Bastiladons shooting is not reliable enough to be a 4/5 imo.
- Can anyone tell me why I see so many lists with Piranha Blade over Giant Blade? Am I missing something? Giant Blade is better and cheaper?
- I agree a SV on a horned one is a reasonable option (character allotment ignored). that sort of movement makes a great war machine / shooter hunter along with decent chaff to flank and rear units
- Saurus infanty is pretty good as far as infantry goes (especially with spears), which is pretty bad.

PS. Kalisto and I have discussed Wandering Deliberations, Headsman's Axe/Horned One and Salamanders a bit, I'm firmly with you on them

Thanks for the kind response! I really like TMP for Basties, that makes it so imho you can get them where they need to be and Rust is just great with javs. Idk about Battle, just so many spells in it seem kinda lackluster to me. Yeah sure Fireball and Pillar are good but it is just not that fantastic.

I kinda agree terras are not that great. Basties i have been quite positive on. They win the skirmisher fights as well. Big part of it is that you have 2 distraction carnosaurs running around that need dealing with so they generally can do their stuff.

 

[discomute]

Thanks for the kind response! I really like TMP for Basties, that makes it so imho you can get them where they need to be and Rust is just great with javs. Idk about Battle, just so many spells in it seem kinda lackluster to me. Yeah sure Fireball and Pillar are good but it is just not that fantastic.

I kinda agree terras are not that great. Basties i have been quite positive on. They win the skirmisher fights as well. Big part of it is that you have 2 distraction carnosaurs running around that need dealing with so they generally can do their stuff.

I admit that I have not experimented with TMP as much as you have. But I just can't see it... 9" range? Plus the bastiladon needs to be within the 90 degree vision arc of the Slann. Which means either you're running your bastiladon in the middle and ahead of the Slann (where it can easily be dispelled) or you're putting all of the Slann's turn into ensuring it can be cast. E.g. Can you still hit plague of rust the turn you ensure you're within 9" and can see the bastiladon?

 

[discomute]

Also what are your thoughts on completely ignoring magic? You can get 3 Carnosaurs in your list that way (1x OB, 2x SV) + 2 Ancient Stegs and some Skink Skirmishers

I have also been wondering about 1OB & ogre blade on carnosaur, 1 SV on carnosaur and a level 2 skink on an ancient stegadon with engine.

You'd do better against dragons with the ogre blade and still have a dispel for remains in play, even if it's a +2 18"

 

[Kalisto]

I admit that I have not experimented with TMP as much as you have. But I just can't see it... 9" range? Plus the bastiladon needs to be within the 90 degree vision arc of the Slann. Which means either you're running your bastiladon in the middle and ahead of the Slann (where it can easily be dispelled) or you're putting all of the Slann's turn into ensuring it can be cast. E.g. Can you still hit plague of rust the turn you ensure you're within 9" and can see the bastiladon?

I really don't understand this tactic either....The bastiladon is good on a flank, away from the enemies dispel caster, to shoot down war machines- cavalry or monsters from long range. If you need TMP this mean that you placed it wrong and probably also your slann is placed in a wrong place.

 

[airjamy]

I admit that I have not experimented with TMP as much as you have. But I just can't see it... 9" range? Plus the bastiladon needs to be within the 90 degree vision arc of the Slann. Which means either you're running your bastiladon in the middle and ahead of the Slann (where it can easily be dispelled) or you're putting all of the Slann's turn into ensuring it can be cast. E.g. Can you still hit plague of rust the turn you ensure you're within 9" and can see the bastiladon?

First off, it is 12 inches and not 9, that is a pretty big difference. Now combine that with Basties only needing a sliver of line of sight to line up a shot and knowing you have free reforms and angles after you move it, and you can see how those 12 inches can get you pretty far. If you play it well and have the Ethereal Slann you can be kinda forward with him and do both for sure.

 

[discomute]

First off, it is 12 inches and not 9, that is a pretty big difference. Now combine that with Basties only needing a sliver of line of sight to line up a shot and knowing you have free reforms and angles after you move it, and you can see how those 12 inches can get you pretty far. If you play it well and have the Ethereal Slann you can be kinda forward with him and do both for sure.

The range is 9" isn't it? Not the spell itself but how close the bastiladon needs to be to the Slann?

 

[airjamy]

The range is 9" isn't it? Not the spell itself but how close the bastiladon needs to be to the Slann?

Definitely is, thought you mean the teleport range. It definitely is limiting but i have found i can make it work. It is also definitely that the other spells in the lore are just good. Wind Blast is a very strong missile, especially if you can push stuff off the table. Ramparts is fantastic vs chariots and such, 5+ ward is always good. Elemental Spirit is a fine vortex. Even the Assailment is not fully a dud if you are an Ethereal Slann. I just found that everything besides Fireball and Pillar in Battle Magic is just pretty shit.

 

[discomute]

Definitely is, thought you mean the teleport range. It definitely is limiting but i have found i can make it work. It is also definitely that the other spells in the lore are just good. Wind Blast is a very strong missile, especially if you can push stuff off the table. Ramparts is fantastic vs chariots and such, 5+ ward is always good. Elemental Spirit is a fine vortex. Even the Assailment is not fully a dud if you are an Ethereal Slann. I just found that everything besides Fireball and Pillar in Battle Magic is just pretty shit.

Hammerhands is absolutely cracking with ethereal. My Slann with bsb soloed 3 Pegasus knights. No one expects a Slann to flank charge either, of course there's never enough infantry to target haha

Truth is, I've never had plague of rust really deliver me a great result. Not once. Sure it's possible, but I think it reads better than it works. First you have to cast it, then you need to ensure you actually hit the unit in the shooting or combat phase. Then you need to wound. Then the armour roll needs to be in a specific band. How many casualties can it expect to cause? 1? I think it's a B tier spell, maybe A tier against the right army but overall I firmly believe it's B tier. TMP is B. The vortex is B. Wind blast is A, only it's range stops it from being S tier.

Fireball and Pillar of fire are S tier and hammerhands is A. The conveyance is C.

 

[Kalisto]

You Slann soled 150 points, he is worth 400 points. If Bretonnia player could dispel your Slann you hadn't soloed anything. If Bretonnia had good magic against you, you couldn't dispel since you were in combat. Last but not least it's enough with a panic a FBIGO of a unit in the surrounding and you can get a charge in the back. Lose the resolution and flee with the Slann.

I am not saying that an ethereal slann is bad it's extremely risky and costy, and it cannot defend you against other magics.

 

[discomute]

You Slann soled 150 points, he is worth 400 points. If Bretonnia player could dispel your Slann you hadn't soloed anything. If Bretonnia had good magic against you, you couldn't dispel since you were in combat. Last but not least it's enough with a panic a FBIGO of a unit in the surrounding and you can get a charge in the back. Lose the resolution and flee with the Slann.

I am not saying that an ethereal slann is bad it's extremely risky and costy, and it cannot defend you against other magics.

Oh absolutely correct, picking melee fights is never plan A. Still:
- the Slann is an overcosted piece of crap and is not built for melee
- Pegasus knights are the best non-character units in the game and specialise in melee
- any stories of "plague of rust" recovering 150 points in 2 turns I'll be all ears

All I'm just saying that hammerhands gives us a huge amount of flexibility with how we can use the Slann.* Don't sleep on it.

* Except against chaos and their ensorcelled weapons *sad*

PS. Also the OP's recommended tournament builds themselves have a weakness against ethereal as there are no magic weapons. Hammerhands might be your only option

 

[Kalisto]

Not completely...dwarves, vampire counts and bretonnia have a lot of magic weapons...

 

[airjamy]

Oh absolutely correct, picking melee fights is never plan A. Still:
- the Slann is an overcosted piece of crap and is not built for melee
- Pegasus knights are the best non-character units in the game and specialise in melee
- any stories of "plague of rust" recovering 150 points in 2 turns I'll be all ears

All I'm just saying that hammerhands gives us a huge amount of flexibility with how we can use the Slann.* Don't sleep on it.

* Except against chaos and their ensorcelled weapons *sad*

PS. Also the OP's recommended tournament builds themselves have a weakness against ethereal as there are no magic weapons. Hammerhands might be your only option

I honestly have not found ethereal to be a real issue. I guess only the Green Knight is a real issue, but he is going to be also if you take magic weapons. Hammerhand plus Wind Blast and Elemental Spirit work fine against most ethereal things, rest of it, you just kinda ignore i guess. Having some magical weapon option be good on a scarvet would sure be nice, but dropping one of the magic items would be very shit. If i could elect not to use something like the Burning Blade i def would have it alongside the Great Weapon on the Glyph Necklace guy, but since you can't, i just wont. If you lack S7 attacks you will just die even harder vs things like Steam Tanks, Iron Daemons, other Behemoths, i think those are a bigger issue then the odd ethereal thing. And you are not completely cold to it as you have the Slann.