TOW The dragon threat

[PestilenceoftheGods]

I was listening to the Dwellers Bellow podcast “How to tame a dragon” and it dawned on me how uniquely suited to fighting dragons lizardmen are. Our monsters are all stubborn, terror causing, immune to psychology brutes that can hold up a dragon for a turn or two, our main line units are cold blooded ld 9 (assuming slann general) so won’t run easily and our slams can make our carnosaur heroes fly. Thoughts?

 

[Kalisto]

And you have NO monsters flying by itself with 8 wounds 6 attacks with 7 strength and 1d6 stomps. Oh i forgot carnosaur has just WS 3 that means against elves and chaos heroes often hit at 5+. Initiative of our heroes suck too..
We have no cannons or long range/heavy damage weapon except for a poisoned bow on a stegadon that has already hard to hit.

Before could kroxigor got a chance to inflict some wounds but now they attack often after the dragon that has much better saves and great weapon is just -2 AP.

To don't name Stegadon that doesn't anymore give any AP with impact hits against a dragon,

Sorry but I completely disagree with this analysis, lizardmen have always suffered dragons. Now is even worse since they have higher WS (means harder to hit for the carnosaur/kroxigor) and higher saves (harder for skinks with poisoning javelins) and they lost +1 to be hitted as large target (harder for the stegadons bow).

 

[BeardedLizard]

I agree with @Kalisto that our weapons against the dragons are not the mightiest. That being said we do have some tools to work with:
1. Carnosaur Oldblood /w Ogreblade + Talisman of Protection. Dangerous enough to force the dragon player to alter their behavior or risk a dead dragon.
2. Slann /w Illusion magic. Can shut down the dragon's ability to charge. Easy to get to get the spells off if you can use the Arcane Vassal rule effectively.
3. Temple Guard Challenge lock This works BUT the dragon player needs to make the mistake of getting in combat with them.

The problem with using other big monsters is that while they might survive and hold their own against a dragon for a couple of turns, you're effectively just feeding it big points. They are a nice way to stop dragons for your Carnosaur to punish a reckless charge.

 

[PestilenceoftheGods]

I agree with @Kalisto that our weapons against the dragons are not the mightiest. That being said we do have some tools to work with:
1. Carnosaur Oldblood /w Ogreblade + Talisman of Protection. Dangerous enough to force the dragon player to alter their behavior or risk a dead dragon.
2. Slann /w Illusion magic. Can shut down the dragon's ability to charge. Easy to get to get the spells off if you can use the Arcane Vassal rule effectively.
3. Temple Guard Challenge lock This works BUT the dragon player needs to make the mistake of getting in combat with them.

The problem with using other big monsters is that while they might survive and hold their own against a dragon for a couple of turns, you're effectively just feeding it big points. They are a nice way to stop dragons for your Carnosaur to punish a reckless charge.

This is basically what I was talking about. We have few enough units that the important ones can be deployed so charging one with a dragon can lead to the dragon itself getting into trouble without too much effort on our end. The Slann with illusion can carnosaur into a flying dino which should cause some concern to the dragon.

Sure, the dragon can go after the skinks and saurus but the meat and potatoes of the army are going to be difficult to deal with.

I had my list in mind when thinking through this which runs all three of these.

 

[Kalisto]

The problem is that you become obligate to play in this manner in every tournament if you want to have a chance. I mean you must have a Slann, a carnosaur and temple guards…maybe you can avoid carnosaur for an arcane vassal on Stegadon but that’s it. Which is really boring….

hoping that due scenario rules your Slann or carnosaur don’t start as reserves or something like that (which happen to me against a tzeentch’s list with +6 casting..)

 

[PestilenceoftheGods]

Sure, but in any tournament you’re only going to play the best units (or cards or whatever) for the game you’re playing. There isn’t the same versatility as there is in casual play if you want to do well.

 

[Kalisto]

Sure, but in any tournament you’re only going to play the best units (or cards or whatever) for the game you’re playing. There isn’t the same versatility as there is in casual play if you want to do well.

That’s true but in my community we have already started with a lot of different comped tournaments to avoid just that…

 

[airjamy]

And you have NO monsters flying by itself with 8 wounds 6 attacks with 7 strength and 1d6 stomps. Oh i forgot carnosaur has just WS 3 that means against elves and chaos heroes often hit at 5+. Initiative of our heroes suck too..
We have no cannons or long range/heavy damage weapon except for a poisoned bow on a stegadon that has already hard to hit.

Before could kroxigor got a chance to inflict some wounds but now they attack often after the dragon that has much better saves and great weapon is just -2 AP.

To don't name Stegadon that doesn't anymore give any AP with impact hits against a dragon,

Sorry but I completely disagree with this analysis, lizardmen have always suffered dragons. Now is even worse since they have higher WS (means harder to hit for the carnosaur/kroxigor) and higher saves (harder for skinks with poisoning javelins) and they lost +1 to be hitted as large target (harder for the stegadons bow).

Totally. We have massive issues with dragons, that is our main drawback as a faction i would say, along with bad access to magic.

 

[airjamy]

Sure, but in any tournament you’re only going to play the best units (or cards or whatever) for the game you’re playing. There isn’t the same versatility as there is in casual play if you want to do well.

I mean,, the whole dragon thing is only relevant for competitive play and not for casual play, so i do not really know what casual play has to do with this issue. We are bad vs dragons, it is an issue. A lot of what you are saying also depends on running a Slann, and Slann are quite meh. No look out sir, very expensive, and he is just as good at casting as an opposing 160 point caster.

 

[UlyZed]

My experiences so far:

• Miasmic Mirage = ok; Doppelganger on Slann = mediocre. Problem is the maneuverability. Slann can charge but target can flee, rally, march and reposition. Dragon Slayer Sword + Lore Familiar is a lot of points. A little risky but often the target is Ld10. Mirage delays - which is ok - but you still have to be in range, get it off, and some of the Dragons still move enough to not be sitting ducks.
• Ethereal Slann = worth a shot for combat res, though. With BSB it will be +1 in the combat if no magic weapon on other side. This is becoming more typical as kits are defensive for max saves and lots of riders take great weapons. War Banner an option, too.
• Wounds + High T = Carnosaur with Multiple Wounds does do damage but not likely to kill. Can maim though. I consider Carnie auto-include at any level (even more than Slann) but it's not a dragon. ScarVet is much more efficient than OldBlood but you may need OldBlood to get the Ogre Blade as it's the access to multiple wounds that matters most.
• Poison is the old reliable. You should be taking decent numbers of Skinks, anyway (by far the best unit in Lizardmen) and the shots do add up, especially as Dragon lists are less likely to have lots of other stuff around due to the big investment. If you're going to kill a dragon - which is almost impossible vs good players due to maneuverability - then it's typically some Poison, some Multiple Wounds getting through.
• Temple Guard are too slow and you're not going to trick the same person twice. Relies on bad play.

Overall, I consider the automatic inclusions in a competitive Lizardmen list to be (in order) Skinks with Javelins, Carnosaur, Ancient Steg, Ethereal Slann (upgrade usually or High Magic). Each of these can provide a co-ordinated response versus a dragon, but you're unlikely to kill it, just slow it down. Good players tend to be risk averse, so learning to threaten with a less-forward Carnosaur is often your best bet. This isn't a good answer, but right now I think Great Cannons or 360 degree charge arc Dragon Slaying Swords are the only 'good' answers in the metagame.

 

[Skink Life]

My experiences so far:

• Miasmic Mirage = ok; Doppelganger on Slann = mediocre. Problem is the maneuverability. Slann can charge but target can flee, rally, march and reposition. Dragon Slayer Sword + Lore Familiar is a lot of points. A little risky but often the target is Ld10. Mirage delays - which is ok - but you still have to be in range, get it off, and some of the Dragons still move enough to not be sitting ducks.
• Ethereal Slann = worth a shot for combat res, though. With BSB it will be +1 in the combat if no magic weapon on other side. This is becoming more typical as kits are defensive for max saves and lots of riders take great weapons. War Banner an option, too.
• Wounds + High T = Carnosaur with Multiple Wounds does do damage but not likely to kill. Can maim though. I consider Carnie auto-include at any level (even more than Slann) but it's not a dragon. ScarVet is much more efficient than OldBlood but you may need OldBlood to get the Ogre Blade as it's the access to multiple wounds that matters most.
• Poison is the old reliable. You should be taking decent numbers of Skinks, anyway (by far the best unit in Lizardmen) and the shots do add up, especially as Dragon lists are less likely to have lots of other stuff around due to the big investment. If you're going to kill a dragon - which is almost impossible vs good players due to maneuverability - then it's typically some Poison, some Multiple Wounds getting through.
• Temple Guard are too slow and you're not going to trick the same person twice. Relies on bad play.

Overall, I consider the automatic inclusions in a competitive Lizardmen list to be (in order) Skinks with Javelins, Carnosaur, Ancient Steg, Ethereal Slann (upgrade usually or High Magic). Each of these can provide a co-ordinated response versus a dragon, but you're unlikely to kill it, just slow it down. Good players tend to be risk averse, so learning to threaten with a less-forward Carnosaur is often your best bet. This isn't a good answer, but right now I think Great Cannons or 360 degree charge arc Dragon Slaying Swords are the only 'good' answers in the metagame.

To that effect, how about...
Old blood on a "Horned one" possibly then monster Slayer blade and Aura of Quetzal. A bit expensive though.

I worry a scar vet version would be too weak to have the desired effect.

 

[BeardedLizard]

Oldblood Monster slayer = 6 attacks on charge - 3 hits - 1/3rd chance to get the dragon.

Maybe needs paymaster's coin to reroll attacks?

 

[UlyZed]

I still think the maneuverability is the issue - then the target can flee. The second charge might not be possible.

If I had to I'd still run Dragon Slaying Sword on the Slann with Doppelganger for the deterrence, but it's not a great solution like Bretonnian Duke on Peg or Lothern Skycutter - White Sword

 

[Kalisto]

If I had to I'd still run Dragon Slaying Sword on the Slann with Doppelganger for the deterrence, but it's not a great solution like Bretonnian Duke on Peg or Lothern Skycutter - White Sword

It's a solution as you say, but a bad one...I think Oldblod and carnosaur are way more effective agaisnt that.
If you are lucky your enemy has no magic weapon and your slann can block the dragon, but not much more than that ( and in my experience 66-75% have a magic weapon on dragon)

 

[UlyZed]

It's a solution as you say, but a bad one...I think Oldblod and carnosaur are way more effective agaisnt that.
If you are lucky your enemy has no magic weapon and your slann can block the dragon, but not much more than that ( and in my experience 66-75% have a magic weapon on dragon)

If Old Blood Carnosaur (Ogre Blade, Talisman of Protection, Shield) is the best set up vs Dragon, how would you kit out the Slann to support that?

 

[DoubleSkulls]

Old blood on a "Horned one" possibly then monster Slayer blade and Aura of Quetzal.

I'm experimenting with this because I don't have the Carnosaur model yet (its my next purchase for the army). My thought was Horned one is 10, Dragon Slaying Sword is 50, leaving 40 for other stuff. Is Talisman of Protection would be better defensively than Aura or Queztal? If so, that would leave 10 points for a Potion of Speed so I can try to get the first hits when charging. I6 on the charge is worse than a Vampire Count on Zombie Dragon or an Elf. I don't want to get killed before I've even rolled to hit!

I've got a unit of Cold One Riders too, so he can either go on his own for 360 LOS and extra 1" for charge, or sit with them depending on what my opponent's roster is like.

Tactically I'm hoping I can use the threat to minimise the impact of the Dragon - if I can stop their 500+ points of Dragon Lord doing much for 6 turns because they worried about my 260 point Saurus then hopefully that gives me an advantage over the rest of the battlefield.