TOW Troglodon

[RipperDerek]

Ok, let's not kid ourselves. The Troglodon is terrible.

It's about the same points as an ancient steg. But it has -1WS, -1S, -1T, -1AS, no impact hits, -4 crew members, -D3 stomps, no armor piercing on stomps...it's basically just worse in every way. Its breath weapon is even way worse than skink javelins.

However, the fact that it is a lvl 1 wizard is at least a little interesting. Normally to get a wizard who can make dispel attempts, you would have to spend character points. But we have some of the best fight-y characters in the game, which means our character points are at a super premium. And I am super loathe to spend any of them on a wizard.

The Troglodon does let you spend Rare points to get a wizard instead, and he can be up near the battle line because of S5 T5 W5, meaning he can give you dispel attempts and at least some magic defense. There is also the ever present concern of rule of 3 comp, which may stop you from taking all the stegs you want, depending on implementation. So what do people think? Is there a place for the Troglodon as token magic defense in a stompy army?

I have a league coming up and trying to decide between 4 stegs (2 character mounts, 2 normal) or 3 stegs + Troglodon.

 

[Fxt]

I will probably try a trog in a meme list with 10 cold ones with frenzy banner and a high magic slann with fury of khaine. On charge they do 5+5 attacks per model XD.

Otherwise probably is """good"""in a dual machine list with battle magic signature

 

[RipperDerek]

It is moderately annoying that the troglodon's roar can just fail to do anything, and you don't even get to retry on another turn. That's another restriction on it I'm not sure needed to be there.

With that said, it is very good if you can get it to affect a skink chief on steg. It adds 7 attacks to the model.

 

[BeardedLizard]

I love the Troglodon model so definitely hoping to find a way to bring him to the battlefield. I think the fact that Troglodon is a lvl 1 priest and not a character is his most useful aspect, roar potential is high but it's very hard to get off succesfully(LD check+units ready to charge). So a list that has characters pumped to max but could still use either a dispeller or an Arcane Vassal for a Slann.

I would try something like:
Characters:
Slann
Oldblood on Carnosaur (Ogreblade + Talisman)
Skink Chief on Stegadon (BSB+Warbanner)
Core:
10 Saurus
17 Temple Guard (Frenzy banner)
3x10 Skinks (2xvanguard)
Special:
Bastiladon
Rare:
Troglodon

 

[Mikebiazzo]

Looking at the Lores the mage can choose, and having level 1, I suppose the idea es: Battle troglodon, with signature of battle magic. Attacks of the troglodon+2d3 from the spell. It has difficult seven, so it's not hard to cast. This configuration may he useful on flanks. Here it can be accompanied by cold ones ir stegadon to use roar with them.
I wanna try it with a speed army.

 

[discomute]

Looking at the Lores the mage can choose, and having level 1, I suppose the idea es: Battle troglodon, with signature of battle magic. Attacks of the troglodon+2d3 from the spell. It has difficult seven, so it's not hard to cast. This configuration may he useful on flanks. Here it can be accompanied by cold ones ir stegadon to use roar with them.
I wanna try it with a speed army.

With no swiftstride it's difficult to get into combat as troglodon is a great target to shoot.

Once in combat his spells tend to be easy to dispel (you are usually within range of a caster) and furthermore you can no longer dispel.

I love him and will find a place for him but... Yeah he is really rough. Any one of the following and he'd have a spot
- swiftstride
- good breath weapon
- tough and/or good armour
- good at combat

 

[RipperDerek]

Yeah, I don't really think trying to get the assailment off with your level 1 in combat is the best plan. He needs to be out of combat so he can dispel anyways.

 

[Mikebiazzo]

Oh, I understand it's not the most efficient option, but he performs quite well last day. I had him in one side, out of range of the Grey Seer, so he could cast the spell against Plague Monks with the Slaynn (Slann+Doppelganger) and they both did a good job. The problem was... he pursued 2... so he was charged the next turn in the flank by the Plague Furnace and died .
I agree the unit has a lot of limitations: why make the roar conditional when it already has a lot of restrictions like the range or having to charge to get the effect? Why, if is a chaser, don't give him the ability to run faster or at least repeat the roll to charge? Why giving him that breath which is more like a burp...?
I want to try it more times anyway: I like him as a flank chaser.

 

[Kalisto]

It may be a good choice but not at 2000 or against a lot of 4 level casters. To dispel you need one more than the caster, that means you have a -2 against a level 2! Ofc can dispel remain in play but you should use a Slann for it.

The only way I see him working is on a flank outside dispel range, with the wizard having a signature spell from battle magic.
Arcane conduit cannot be used in combat so it’s useless. However can be interesting to shot a wind blast with a Slann and well placed troglodon.
The roar have a good chance to fail (the same as cold one stupidity, that means you have nearly 50% chance to fail one of them in the same turn) … Note also that frenzy don’t give immune to stupidity as other editions!

Ibastilodon is much better on the flank imho. (Cost less, one less wound but much better armour save, the solar engine is just amazing and it makes more attacks)

 

[RipperDerek]

No one is saying he is going to be good at dispelling, just better than nothing at all.

If your opponent has something like a lvl4, a lvl2, and some bound items or a casket or whatever, they will be casting 6-8 spells per turn. Even at a 30% success rate, the Oracle will still dispel 2-3 of them, plus let you have another shot at remains in play next turn. As opposed to an average success rate of 0.

The question is, does that improvement actually justify taking an otherwise sub-par unit like the Troglodon...

 

[Kalisto]

30% is too high I believe. Even if you are inside 18” to dispel (and you are not if you are on a side) you need at least a 7 with dice to dispel the lowest level 4 casting result (3+4).

Is a difference thing about power bound item and/or remaining spells in play, where you have an higher chance. However for the same points I would prefer to play a caster level 2 and a salamander and you have point left…

 

[RipperDerek]

I did a simulation of 4579 cast attempts, and it turns out the odds of a level 1 dispelling a spell that was successfully cast by a level 4 is about 10%.

 

[RipperDerek]

About 25% against lvl2

 

[Kalisto]

Nearly everyone play a level 4 nowadays....ok is a bit better if you are inside range for remain in play spells but still BAD

Thank a lot for your tests!

 

[discomute]

I did a simulation of 4579 cast attempts, and it turns out the odds of a level 1 dispelling a spell that was successfully cast by a level 4 is about 10%.

View attachment 147568

Okay but I think you are all missing something key here

The vast majority of the absolute best spells remain in play. Hex and vortexes. An oracle can dispel these on subsequent turns with a lot more effectiveness than 10% because you're not longer getting the +4

 

[RipperDerek]

Well that is a lot easier to math, the odds of dispelling an 8+ to cast remains in play are 28% with your fated dispel, and 41% with a level 1.

 

[Kalisto]

Okay but I think you are all missing something key here

The vast majority of the absolute best spells remain in play. Hex and vortexes. An oracle can dispel these on subsequent turns with a lot more effectiveness than 10% because you're not longer getting the +4

Given that you are within 18" of the caster....

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

He's useful for dispelling Remains in Plays that are out of range of your slann or steg priest

I do wish it had swiftstride and a better breath or roar. At least allow a roar that wasn't successful to be used another turn.