Tutorial The Big TOW Lizardmen Tactica

[Kalisto]

Just an FYI to everyone - you don't have to use multiple shots. I agree that if you never use it there is little point. But if you take them and find yourself on 7's just shoot single and you're back to 6's.

Then better the bow with AP-2 and D3 wounds. I agree… see either no point for giant blowpipes. Especially since you can’t resist and shot

 

[airjamy]

I agree, I also think double engine of the gods is something we will see quite a bit. I am thinking more and more about going without a Slann, stegadons with 7 wounds are just very nice.

 

[Kalisto]

I agree, I also think double engine of the gods is something we will see quite a bit. I am thinking more and more about going without a Slann, stegadons with 7 wounds are just very nice.

2 Engines of goods and a Slann costs around 950/1000 points depending by magic items. I am not so sure it’s worth it. Do you want to add priest sorcerer it goes 100 points more. If you meet a caster level 4 it can dispel easily stegadons. By the way their shoot is just 15” and you cannot shoot in melee. Every caster can have max 2 damage spells there of one in melee and the other ranged (this mean you launch just one every turn). If you are lucky you have also a vortex that is quite unpredictable. So really not sure it’s worth to go so magic focused

 

[airjamy]

Why would the skink chief not be able to use the bow or blow pipes if now you hit against the ws of the skinks & not that of the steg?

As Discomute has said, currently RAW, only the Steg itself can fire it (and he has no BS), as he is equipped by it and not the crew. It is a tossup if the Chief gets to shoot, i think he should, but this is one of the things you should talk about with your opponent.

 

[RipperDerek]

The Dark Elf scourgerunner chariot has a similar weapon/crew situation, but has a note that says one of the crew may fire the weapon instead of their normal weapon each turn. My playgroup has ruled that the Stegadon bow functions the same, which means a Chief cannot fire it.

 

[Lord Agragax of Lunaxoatl]

The Dark Elf scourgerunner chariot has a similar weapon/crew situation, but has a note that says one of the crew may fire the weapon instead of their normal weapon each turn. My playgroup has ruled that the Stegadon bow functions the same, which means a Chief cannot fire it.

I agree... I certainly don't recall Skink Chiefs on Stegadons in previous Editions being able to barge their crewmates out of the way and fire weapons for them (indeed would they know how to fire a Giant Bow all by themselves?), and it keeps it simpler to rule that option out.

 

[Kalisto]

On the order hand all others heroes in other army can do it, or give a bonus to the crew. Dwarves empire and so on… with the same logic I dont see why he shouldn’t fire.

Poisoning weapons on Stegadon is absolutely ridicolous but this point is nothing strange to me. Is like an empire engineer that has joined a war machine.

 

[RipperDerek]

On the order hand all others heroes in other army can do it, or give a bonus to the crew. Dwarves empire and so on… with the same logic I dont see why he shouldn’t fire.

Poisoning weapons on Stegadon is absolutely ridicolous but this point is nothing strange to me. Is like an empire engineer that has joined a war machine.

Those are artillery weapons, so not the best comparisons. Whereas the Stegadon and the Scourgerunner are both chariots with weapons on their profile. With that said, it's just our group's local ruling - the rulebook doesn't actually say, so your group is free to rule differently.

 

[discomute]

- the rulebook doesn't actually say, so your group is free to rule differently.

This is my issue though, the rulebook doesn't say you can so I'm not sure why anyone would think they could.

 

[discomute]

There is a difference in outgoing and incoming attacks.

Also what is missing from our rulebook that is on most chariots is the text View attachment 144717

I believe this is just an oversight and as it says here, it is the "crew" that may fire. Definitely something that should be FAQed and I have sent it in

I have reversed my position on this. Page 206 says that a character that joins a chariot becomes it's crew. So I think we can use the chief's BS on the stegadon.

 

[Gothmog Lord of Balrogs]

I would only consider blowpipes if the steg had a chief with his BS 5. Sure not mostly hitting on a 5+ when you move and do multiple shots at long range, but high potential to spike, and its a 4+ at a shorter range.

Sure you may say "But the bow is even better with his BS"... while it is, its not a big an improvement because Multi-wound is still only D3. Meaning even if you hit on a 3+ you may just do 1 damage. IMO better to have more shots fishing for 1 damage + Poison.

But yeah, without the Chief, bow is probably the way to go on a vanilla steg

 

[Kalisto]

I would only consider blowpipes if the steg had a chief with his BS 5. Sure not mostly hitting on a 5+ when you move and do multiple shots at long range, but high potential to spike, and its a 4+ at a shorter range.

Sure you may say "But the bow is even better with his BS"... while it is, its not a big an improvement because Multi-wound is still only D3. Meaning even if you hit on a 3+ you may just do 1 damage. IMO better to have more shots fishing for 1 damage + Poison.

But yeah, without the Chief, bow is probably the way to go on a vanilla steg

Both yes and now. The bow give -2 AP and the other doesn't. The bow have strength 5 and poison 3 (if you don't make a 6 to hit of course).
My problem playing lizardmen are usually big monsters or cavalry with high armour/toughness. In this case usually bow is better.

 

[airjamy]

I would only consider blowpipes if the steg had a chief with his BS 5. Sure not mostly hitting on a 5+ when you move and do multiple shots at long range, but high potential to spike, and its a 4+ at a shorter range.

Sure you may say "But the bow is even better with his BS"... while it is, its not a big an improvement because Multi-wound is still only D3. Meaning even if you hit on a 3+ you may just do 1 damage. IMO better to have more shots fishing for 1 damage + Poison.

But yeah, without the Chief, bow is probably the way to go on a vanilla steg

It depends on your target i would say. I do like sniping enemy war machines, especially bolt throwers with only 2 wounds, with the Giant Bow. At least then it has considerable impact while a few wounds here and there with the blowpipes on some infantry blocks probably will not matter much even if you do more wounds.

 

[RipperDerek]

I have reversed my position on this. Page 206 says that a character that joins a chariot becomes it's crew. So I think we can use the chief's BS on the stegadon.

According to Split Profile (Chariot Mount), the Character and Crew are different things, and cannot use each other's weapons. It actually says that explicitly.

 

[Kalisto]

According to Split Profile (Chariot Mount), the Character and Crew are different things, and cannot use each other's weapons. It actually says that explicitly.

Source/page?

 

[RipperDerek]

Source/page?

Pg 205, 3rd bullet point

 

[Kalisto]

Pg 205, 3rd bullet point

I agree that it would be so BUT the problem is that then the Stegadon should use the bow and not the skinks. But Stegadon has no BS!

Isn’t written as precedent editions that 2 skinks can use the bow.
If we assume then that the crew can use the bow and the hero become part of the crew then also the hero can use it. Similar as other units that is specified for (like dark elf chariot)

It’s bad writing and a FAQ is required (as poison attacks for the Stegadon) but in my discord group (a national one) no one argumented against the chief hero using the bow. Still discussion ongoing about poisoning weapons. It’s clear that until a FAQ come will be discussion upon it, I believe is better to stop the discussion on it since everyone has right and wrong at the same time… until the FAQ

 

[RipperDerek]

I agree that it would be so BUT the problem is that then the Stegadon should use the bow and not the skinks. But Stegadon has no BS!

Isn’t written as precedent editions that 2 skinks can use the bow.
If we assume then that the crew can use the bow and the hero become part of the crew then also the hero can use it. Similar as other units that is specified for (like dark elf chariot)

It’s bad writing and a FAQ is required (as poison attacks for the Stegadon) but in my discord group (a national one) no one argumented against the chief hero using the bow. Still discussion ongoing about poisoning weapons. It’s clear that until a FAQ come will be discussion upon it, I believe is better to stop the discussion on it since everyone has right and wrong at the same time… until the FAQ

Right, there is no rule that allows the bow to be shot at all. You have to house rule it.

We have house ruled that it works like other chariot shooting weapons, such as the Dark Elf scourgerunner chariot, which says: "One of the crew may fire this weapon instead of their normal weapon each turn." That seems like the most reasonable interpretation.

If you accept that solution, the Chief cannot fire the bow. But you can still house rule differently.

 

[discomute]

Right, there is no rule that allows the bow to be shot at all. You have to house rule it.

We have house ruled that it works like other chariot shooting weapons, such as the Dark Elf scourgerunner chariot, which says: "One of the crew may fire this weapon instead of their normal weapon each turn." That seems like the most reasonable interpretation.

If you accept that solution, the Chief cannot fire the bow. But you can still house rule differently.

I think you're slightly missing the argument
- the giant bow /pipes can be used by "the crew"
- the chief is part of the crew
- yes they "use their own weapons" but that is in reference to their javelins so that line is not an argument that can be used against it

The argument I'd accept is that the chief being part of the crew that does seem to be flavour text and perhaps not having the implications intended. But, still that's a RAI guesstimate.

PS. There is simply no reason to deny poison at all. Very clearly the special rule applies to the entire unit. There are some special rules that are notes not to apply. They did not say that about poison. 100% RAW and if the rest of the book wasn't so shabby I'd be at 100% for RAI

 

[RipperDerek]

I think you're slightly missing the argument
- the giant bow /pipes can be used by "the crew"
- the chief is part of the crew
- yes they "use their own weapons" but that is in reference to their javelins so that line is not an argument that can be used against it

The argument I'd accept is that the chief being part of the crew that does seem to be flavour text and perhaps not having the implications intended. But, still that's a RAI guesstimate.

PS. There is simply no reason to deny poison at all. Very clearly the special rule applies to the entire unit. There are some special rules that are notes not to apply. They did not say that about poison. 100% RAW and if the rest of the book wasn't so shabby I'd be at 100% for RAI

No, as I explained above, the rules explicitly say the crew and the character are separate and cannot use each other's weapons. It is not specific to Javelins, it applies to all weapons. The section below is a rule about adding wounds to the chariot, is not related at all to what weapons they can use.

There is no real argument you can make that says the Chief can fire the bow, if you are also using the other chariot rules. You can of course use whatever rules you want, though.